why plane irons are so thin?????

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

joel

>THere are two limitations on using a thick blade in a stanley. the first is frog position. You can move it back and greatly increase the size of blade you can use. THe only caveat is to make sure that the blade really pokes out the bottom of the plane and doesn't get hung up on the exposed area left by the moved back frog. and if it does you can always file the mouth.

the more serious problem is the adjusting yoke on the plane. IT has to go through the iron and then engage the cap iron. the thicker the iron the less engagement, and consequently the less travel. In general with thicker irons this isn't a huge problem but if the iron is too thin and the yoke finger too short the cap iron won't engage enough to be usuable.

In general the aftermarket irons by Hock fit everything. The aftermarket irons by Holtey and Clifton fit most planes. when you start getting thicker then you start having problems.

In addition more recent stanleys (plastic handle) and stanley's fitted with replacment yokes may give you more trouble as the current replacement yoke part from stanley has a very short finger.

Cuz they are easy to sharpen

jim_reed@marietta

>I routinely make 1/8" blades for my bench planes. The thick and hard blade outperforms the OEM by a mile. Thin blades are popular because thicker blades are harder to sharpen, are heavier, and have twice as much steel ($). Market pressures forced planemakers to sell with the light blade. Anyway, it is the one part of the plane that can be easily modified after the sale.

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

paul womack

>Is it possible at all to get a Norris-like blade (nice, thick, 1/8�-or-so) for my Stanley?

infill blades, and many old woodie blades are between 3/16" and a full 1/4" and will not (without extensive and irreversible metalwork) fit a Bailey pattern plane.

BugBear

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

David Miller from Iowa

>Adapting Confucius - Seek not all traits in one plane. In a properly tuned plane the stock blades work fine for general use on decent wood, and I personally think the thickness debate is moot until you get into difficult woods. If you want to smooth quilted crotchwood or some other gruesome task, you will need an upgrade from the 4 1/2, only one dynamic of which is a more robust cutter.

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

Todd Hughes

>I agree with David, I think the reason that Stanley blades are the thickness they are is because for the vast majority of thier original users the blade was fine.If wood workers back then "needed" a thicker blade Stanley would have made them one because if not they would have lost custermers.Some Ohio metal planes have thick blades but how many of these do you see? I would think if wood workers back then needed, wanted, these thick blades Ohio planes would be very common and Stanleys would have had to make thick blades or go out of bussiness. While I often don't understand it today many wood workers want to use difficult to work wood whose names i can't even spell and because of this a thinner Stanley blade maybe won't work as well as a blade made for this type of work.....Personaly I would sharpen up the original blade and use it and worry about it being to thin if problims come up.......Todd

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Asher

In my opinion you have three options to improve your plane (assuming that you have tuned up the mouth and the sole, perhaps even the frog if necessary).

Firstly you could consider an aftermarket blade, such as a Hock, LN (the "Stanley Replacement" variety only), or one of Jim's. All of these are around 3/16" thick. Anything thicker will likely require filing the plane's mouth, assuming that the Yoke is long enough in the first place.

The second option is to get a thick chip breaker from either LN or Hock (I really don't like the Clifton chip breaker - half keeps falling out of the plane onto the floor when ever I remove the blade for sharpening). These chip breakers will produce such a significant improvement on their own that you may not even feel there is a need to change blades!

The third option is to go with both a thicker blade and the chip breaker. I have the LN pair in my #604 and the Clifton pair in my #4-1/2, and both transformed the planes.

Improvements include reduced chatter and improved edge holding. Keep in mind that the blades (and combinations) alone don't necessarily give you better shavings - you do need to tune the plane as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Cuz they are easy to sharpen

Tim of San Leandro

>I find the 1/4 inch thick irons in Knight planes easier to sharpen than the 1/16 or 3/32 thick Stanley irons....more bevel to register on the abrasive.

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

Dale Stansbery

>Todd, I have a Keen Kutter KK5 that also uses a very thick tapered blade with chip breaker like the old wooden planes. It's the only Keen Kutter I've seen like it (actually haven't seen many total). I'm still looking for an original lever cap for it. I presume the blade is original to this plane since it's stamped Keen Kutter and the yoke lever is longer to accommodate the thick blade. A Stanley #3 lever cap is the right length, but obviously a little too narrow, but works ok.

Re: why plane irons are so thin?????

Roger Nixon

>Your KK5 was made by Ohio Tools. A variety of manufacturers made planes for Keen Kutter but the thick, tapered irons were only by Ohio.

Thanks for the info Roger

Dale Stansbery

>

Hey Roger

David Miller from Iowa

>Did Ohio make the Rev O Noc ones? I have several of them and they have the jumbo thick tapered cutters. Great planes.

My thoughts and comments

Asher F.

>Thanks to everyone for all your responses!

Having read all the posts, here are my comments and thoughts�

David Miller wrote:

and I personally think the thickness debate is moot until you get into difficult woods.

Working cherry originated my initial post. I understand that cherry is considered hard wood, but it�s certainly not considered difficult since the grain does not change direction unless working with flat-sawn boards. Well, I often do. When I go with the grain � I can produce see-through shavings. As soon as I get to the point where grain changes direction, it tears the surface.

Derek wrote:

In my opinion you have three options to improve your plane (assuming that you have tuned up the mouth and the sole, perhaps even the frog if necessary).

The sole was re-done and is flat, iron was re-sharpened; the mouth opening is set to about 1/16"

Firstly you could consider an aftermarket blade �. All of these are around 3/16" thick.

Not sure if they are 3/16". Lee Valley�s replacements are only 3/32" (which is 1/3 or 1/32" thicker then what I have now), Hock � I did not see anything that mentions its size (other then widths). And, of course there is 4 1/2 LN with 0.14" blade - NICE.

The second option is to get a thick chip breaker from either LN or Hock �

That is an option I might try first.

All this comes from trying to remove the sending operation from my finishing process. Sending is ok, but hand-planed surface (when it�s done right) is SO much nicer, not to mention that it also requires and shows higher skill level...

Last night for the academic purposes I tried to use block plane on my flat-sawn cherry and results were much nicer then 4 1/2 Stanley produced. This brings me to my final thought: I wonder if I a low-angel smoother would help in this case...

Asher.

Re: My thoughts and comments

David Miller from Iowa

>Well done and very thoughtful. Just another comment. In my experience, the problem with thin blades is chatter. Tearout is caused by not being able to get the throat tight enough, and maybe the angle of the blade (i.e, go to york pitch). And cherry is prone to tearout.

Now, to the extent that a thicker blade will tighten up the throat, I withdraw my "thin blades are fine" position as that is a legitimate approach to get the physics right.

Having said that, I bought the LN 4 1/2 a few years back because I was having this same problem. I moved that frog up until I could barely see light and was still getting tearout.

Then someone on Badger Pond told me my cutters weren't sharp. I took offense because I considered myself to be a great sharpener - I was doing it professionally in my Dad's hardware store in the 1960s. However, after I couldn't get this right I did go back and started using the 3M micron size paper and the ruler trick and bam, like magic, the tearout stopped.

Good luck, David

Re: My thoughts and comments

Tony Z.

>Boy Asher, it seems as if I wrote this post! I have had virtually the same experience about a year or so ago. I was working with flat sawn cherry also, and had no problems until the grain changed, and then, bam, tear-out. Over the past year or so, on other projects using same wood (I've got several hundred board feet)I've tried a number of fixes--card scrapers, L-N 85 scraper, L-N LA jack, etc. etc. Today I really don't have the same problem! Am I using all the new "toys"? Occasionally, but I seem to gravitate more to my original aresenal of my 605 & SW 4. What's the difference? I believe practice and now experience!

The ruler trick?

Mike Lietzow

>Please elaborate David. TIA.

Cheers,

Mike

Is it possible?

Asher F.

>However, after I couldn't get this right I did go back and started using the 3M micron size paper and the ruler trick and bam, like magic, the tearout stopped

Very intriguing, could you please expand on you sharpenning techniques.

As of today my method of sharpenning consists of (without going in great details) using King water stone (1000 and 6000 grid I believe) and vise-type on-stone honing guide. Both sides of the cutting edge look like mirrors.

The ruler trik: is that when you lay down the ruller with numbers facing up, then putting plane on top of it and adjust the frog to the appropriate openning or am I confusing it with something else?

Thanks,

Ahser

Re: The ruler trick?

David Miller from Iowa

>There have been threads on here, and we have even had David Charlesworth, noted woodworker and, I believe, the originator of the trick, weigh in as well. It�s basically an easy way to put on the back bevel by setting a steel shim (i.e., a ruler) on the edge of a your whetstone (or in my case, scary sharp abrasive sheets) and use it as a jig to get a consistent and very quick back bevel. His point is that you don�t have agonize over flattening the back.

Re: Is it possible? *LINK*

David Miller from Iowa

>No, it�s not the frog adjustment, and I�m not saying your cutters aren�t sharp, just that I thought mine were and they weren�t.

At the risk of hijacking your thread into one of our famous sharpening rants, I use scary sharp, then put the final hone on using a technique similar to Brent Beach in the link, except I don�t use the jig, I use a thin steel ruler as a shim under the end of the cutter to raise it up for the back bevel, and I even do the secondary front bevel the same way, just using a block of steel as a guide instead of free handing it.


Good sharpening link I found right here

Re: The ruler trick?

Mike Lietzow

>Thanks David. I thought the micro-back-bevel was what you were referring to but I wanted to make sure. I just moved into a new shop (well, not really a "shop", just one stall in a garage) and as soon as I get things organized, I'm going to try that technique.

Cheers,

Mike - who has *A LOT* of sharpening to do

Yeah but...

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>...why practice with the tools ya got when someone is always dangling that new fanged super improved new fangled whatchamacallit on a pole? They should be selling crowbars...that's the only tool gonna open my wallet

Re: Yeah but...

Tony Z.

>Some of us never learn! I started in life as a carpenter (mud) for my first 25 careeer years and migrated into manufacturing (started a small biz. 15 yrs ago). As with learning anything new, some of us have a tendency to think we need every new whiz-bang item.

Although I've been working wood for years, its only been the past few years that I'm becoming proficient at making things pleasing to the eye! Fortunately, in this latest phase of my life, I didn't get too far out of control in "accumulating" toys! Mainly its my wife who buys to "encourage" me to build more items for her! Items I generally buy are old and rusty! Items my wife buys are limited to the initials L-N or LV. These itesm are far better for presents than the Harley T-shirt or Jerry Garcia tie (said tongue in cheek as I've ridden bikes for over 35 years and I'm still morning August 9, 1995).