Waterstone Sharpening

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Bert

The answer is "yes, it is preferable to sharpen to 6000-8000". But before you rush out and buy another stone, why don't you try honing your blades with the Veritas green compound (often nicknamed "crayon") since this may be a cheaper alternative. I believe that it has the equivalent grit of a 9000 waterstone, but am open to correction. Rub the compound on a scrap of MDF, then use this as if it were a sharpening stone.

By the way, I have King waterstones (nothing fancy - I bought them before I had heard about Shaptons) in grits of 800, 1200, 4000, and 6000. I then hone on the Veritas compound. I bought the 4000 stone as a mid point between the 1200 and 6000 (no 3000 available), and I really cannot say that it works like this. In fact, I has stopped using it as I do not find it reduces the amount of time required for removing coarser scratches.

I would not interpret this to indicate that the 4000 and 6000 stones are similar. Rather that the 6000 stone is better at removing metal more quickly than I at first thought it could. The Veritas green compound does make quite a difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Different strokes

Ellis Walentine

>I'm convinced there are proponents for every sharpening system and technique. The important thing is mastering a routine that will produce the kind of edges you want in the amount of time you're willing to spend.

This said, the choice to add a finer grit stone to your system depends on your appreciation and need for a sharper edge. An 8000 grit stone such as a King or a Takenoko or a Shapton will definitely put a higher polish (and a sharper edge) on your chisels and plane irons than a 4000 grit stone.

Personally I couldn't be without the finer stone.

Ellis Walentine

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I went for a couple of years only to 4000 grit. After getting an 8000 grit stone (Norton?), I noticed quite a difference.

If you can afford it, buy it.

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>Methinks it is going to be pretty unanimous on the question of whether going further than a 4k stone is going to give you better results overall, but there are lots of ways to get there. Until you get tired of using two systems or buying paper, I can't think of a good reason to go out and buy another stone, and the ~$60-90 for a good finishing stone will buy a lot of sheet abrasive.

If you like waterstones as a system, the fine stone is very convenient and will give you excellent edges; the rest is a time/money equation that only you can answer.

/jvs

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Tony - Memphis

>I pretty much agree with what everybody else said. I bought the Norton set after taking a class with Lonnie Bird. I was real impressed with them. I do the LV Green Crayon thing after the 8k stone too. I have a piece of MDF that I use with it. Does seem to add a bit to the shine. But, I know some folks stop at hard black ark oil stone. I was using a Tormek and stopping there, but I am much happier with the Nortons. I use the Tormek for grinding, then finish up on the Nortons. For carving tools and turning tools, I pretty much just use the Tormek. Maybe you can find someone close that has an 8000 you can try to see if you want one? I've also wondered about the Nagura or whatever sotne that you rub on the real fine stones? Anyone?

Tony

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Sgian Dubh

>John, It all depends on what you mean by better. I read the hand tool section of WoodCentral from time to time mostly with dispassionate interest-- the concerns of amateur hand tool users have nothing to do with making a living as a furniture maker.

For a working furniture maker like myself, speed and function are king. I use handplanes when, and as needed-- they're just a tool, a means to an end-- the end being the invoice.

It gets blunt-- sharpen it, and be bloody quick about it too. If a working furniture maker takes more than two to three minutes to get their plane from blunt to back in action and planing again, you're in trouble.

Super micro-fine sharpness and mirror bright edges have their place particularly in the last stages of polish prepping, but for 95% of all plane sharpening needs, a few whacks over an 800 grit Japanese stone (or equivelant) is more than good enough, unless the tool needs regrinding.

Sure. It's nice to get all knicker twisted about using 8,000, 10,000, etc., grit, but it sure isn't productive. Anyway, the more perfect you get the cutting edge, the quicker it is blunt, so there's usually not much point in getting the blade that sharp in the first place. Slainte.

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>With Norton's no need for the Nagura stone. Norton stones release particles quickly. I keep mine in water so it cuts fast for a few years now. Personally I really like the 3M 0.5q plain microabrasive paper with the Crayon treatment to finish off and touch up the irons.

aye--points taken!

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>

Richard, Great web site!!!  *LINK*

A. Byrd

>


http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/

Thanks for the comment.

Sgian Dubh

>

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

bert

>One wonders why anyone with such a "dispassionate interest in the concerns of amateur hand tool users" would bother to post disdainful comments on their forum.

My concerns, and I'm sure those of many who use this forum, have to do with the pleasure gained through the process of working wood with hand tools, and nothing to do with cranking out furniture with invoices and productivity as a primary goal. Who's getting knicker twisted here?

The thought of desperately going from the workbench to the sharpening bench and back in three minutes would take the fun out of our avocation, and at my age would probably result in injury. If I had to do that I'd return to my profession and give up woodworking.

I will buy a finer stone since most comments here indicate that added benefits in line with the goals of a lowly amateur like me will accrue.

Thanks for the assistance gentlemen handtool users.

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Dan Donaldson

>I did not see it as disdainful, just a differing perspective. The question is what is "good enough". For some, it is the mirror finish and the quest for the ultimate sharpness, while for others, it is getting it sharp enough to do the job in the least possible time. Different strokes for different folks. I don't see anything inherently wrong with either approach, whatever floats your boat.

Re: Waterstone Sharpening

Sgian Dubh

>Bert, there's nothing disdainful about it. I'm all about results where the process is not very important. To others the tools and the process is important and results are of lesser consequence.

Each to their own. Here's a tale from way back when I began in this trade. You may get a wee tickle from it,--- or not, ha, ha. Slainte.

A Lesson in Sharpening.

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing �infallible� or �sure fire� methods of doing the job.

Naturally, the subject is of great interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make valid points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools.

Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.

1. Those that can�t.

2. Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, bits of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven�t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I�ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It�s a case of, "Plane�s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant, along with a few slips for gouges and the like.

Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don�t now precisely recall the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Git that piece o� wood square." I didn�t know why, but I�d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or thirty minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I�ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about seventy five per cent of its original volume!)

"Now sonny, let�s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane yuh�v bin usin� apairt and let�s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so�s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.

"Now, can yuh see it? Can yuh see the �line o� light� at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped off a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to yoo boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I�d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie with me son. If yuh can see it, it�s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma�sel�. Git o�er here an� I�ll show yuh something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally stropped backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand.

You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was popped back in the plane, followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,�......a few minutes.

"Now son, that�s a shairp plane. It�s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yuh may as weel sling a soddin� blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I�ve aboot ten mair o� them in that box, an� they�re all blunt. I know they are, because ah�ve bin savin �em for yuh. There�s a bunch a chisels too. Let�s get yuh started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit" I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I�d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.

"Aye, no too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye�ve goat whit it takes. Time will tell sonnie. Remember, ye�ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yuh cannae even shairpen yer feckin� tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it!"

I haven't.

yikes.

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>I didn't take Richard's comments as disdainful; it gets pointed out a lot here that pros and non-pros have very different perspectives on a whole bunch of stuff about tools and tool use, especially words like "better" and "efficient" start flying around. The departure is the bottom line, and for a pro, that is pretty simple math. For non-pros (especially neander-oriented ones), it gets fuzzier, since we tend to get value from process as well as product. Since a big part of the process part of the equation involves edge tools, "amateurs" tend to be a lot more interested in things like sharpening, getting the last erg of performance from a $200+ smoother (or a $5 one, for that matter), the world's spiffiest chisels (high on my list after the last *bay disaster), mortising by hand, etc.--things that folks doing this for a living may have already long answered or lost interest in or that they have figured out by direct experience don't put meat on the table for them (yes, there are exceptions, too). When someone who does this for a living does take an interest, it can be a useful dose of perspective.

I happen to disagree somewhat on the facts in this particular case--my experience is that if the angles and steel are the same, highly refined edges do last longer (and fail differently) than edges off coarser grits--but I'm not going to argue the point with someone who eats from what he kills with his tools, and may start thinking more about edges that are refined *enough* for a particular job instead of taking every edge to butt-shaving sharp every time.

I'm also (reasonably) sure, Bert, that no offense was intended, just the offering of a different point of view. You also have to realize some things about Richard--he hasn't seen the sun in almost nine months now, is back to drinking warm beer again, and was paying $6 a gallon for gas before the Yukos thing hit. Enough to make almost anyone sound a little grumpy....




/jvs

Now there's a name I recognize....OT

Steve Kubien

>Richard, while in Shrewsbury, did you ever spend any time at the Boat House Inn along the river? As a 16 year old student in the high school, I had occasion to spend 2-1/2 weeks in England and we spent some time in Shrewsbury.

On one night, our group (well, about 40 of us) descended upon the Boat House. One of the locals followed me around to the back of the bar after I ordered my pint of lager expressing his love for Canadians. "We remember the Great War! Passchendale! The Somme!" He was quite rat-assed but very likeable. Wouldn't let me buy a round all night. It was a great first night in England (lousy second morning though).

Reading a bit of your website has brought back memories. That whole trip was amazing.

Thanks,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

remove the _9 to email

Re: Now there's a name I recognize....OT

Sgian Dubh

>The Boat House steve, just by the Welsh Bridge on The Severn? I quaffed a few there, but not often. In Shrewsbury I tended to meet friends in the Yorkshire House which is between the Mardol Head and Wyle Cop and opposite the Post Office. Slainte.