Identify and use hundreds of woods
Articles Forums Gallery Marketplace Videos

WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Need a tree taken down or milled?

Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Posts

Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#1

Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Tom Sontag - St. Louis

>Chapter II of Palladio's first book of architecture has the following text (as published by Ware and transcribed by Sontag):

"Vitruvius tells us, in the ninth chapter of his second book, that timber ought to be felled in autumn, of during the winter season, in the wane of the moon; for then the trees recover the vigour and solidity that in spring and summer was dispersed among their leaves and fruit. It will, moreover, be free from a certain moisture, very apt to engender worms, and rot it, which at the time will be consumed and dried up. It ought likewise to be cut but to the middle of the pith, and so left until it thoroughly dry, that the moisture, the cause of putrfaction, may gradually distil and drop away."

I understand about winter cut wood and moisture, although, other than sap (moisture + sugars), I am not sure what "vigour" retreats from the leaves and fruit to the wood in the offseason. Sounds to me like middle ages hokum, but comments are welcome. And what is that about the moon phase? Is there anything really going on inside a tree in December based on the moon? The last part suggests ripping the log through the pith, which makes perfectly good sense to me. More:

"When fell'd, it must be laid in a proper place, where it may be shelter'd from the south sun, high winds, and rain. That of spontaneous growth especially ought to be fully dried, and daubed over with cow-dung, to prevent its splitting. It should not be drawn through the dew, but removed rather in the afternoon; nor wrought when wet and damp, or very dry: the one being apt to cause rottenness, and the other to make clumsy work. Neither will it in less than three years be dry enough to be made use of in planks for the floors, windows, and doors."

More help needed here. What is a "spontaneous growth" (opposite of farm raised?) and why the cow dung treatment? I take it he is mainly talking about construction timbers of size, so the 3 year thing makes sense. Anyone care to cast a little light on how lumber was made in 1570 beyond the above is welcome to add their thoughts.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#2

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I suspect the cow dung (from the context) was intended to slow (it wouldn't completely retard it) the release of moisture through the end grain(?). It doesn't say where it was daubed (perhaps that was known by "everyone") but that is a guess.

You would probably be surprised by what is done with cow dung in the developing world even today. I remember when I was travelling through the Indian countryside and you would see houses with these pats of cow dung stuck to the side of the building and in big stacks (over 2m high) drying. This is used as fuel for stoves.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#3

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Tom, I think the questions you raise are easily answered if we stop and realize how little was actually known about biological organisms back then. The term Vigour (American vigor) is simply a way of explaining "life and vitality." And whatever magic was at work to make things grow. Likewise the term "spontaneous growth" seems to be an explanation of fungi and other organisms that seem to appear from know where. And the cow dung is that no name brand of PEG to seal the ends.

I read similar seamingly vague text in "Vasari on Technique." I remember a very interesting treatise on wood harvesting by one of the Cramona violin makers of the late sixteenth century. In it he suggests that the ring barking should be left to stand, and then counts by the moon's phase before final felling. (the centerfold calendar was not yet available) As a result he was able to almost guarantee lumber that would have a tone to it. (like a piece used to make a xylophone key)

Trial and error have been our teachers for millennia. So when, after hundreds of years of passing the techniques down from one to another, a repeatable solution is hit upon, we tend to repeat all of the steps, including some that have distant connection to the task. The colour of the clothes worn and the meal eaten just prior to the task would seem of no importance to modern man. But in many cases these satellite gestures did have significant influence on the outcome. Certain coloured clothes attract flies, a belly full of porridge would keep hunger away for a longer period, and so on.

Can you imagine what questions you might have if Palladio had not first deciphered Vitruvius for us?

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#4

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Mitchell

>"When fell'd, it must be laid in a proper place, where it may be shelter'd from the south sun, high winds, and rain. That of spontaneous growth especially ought to be fully dried, and daubed over with cow-dung, to prevent its splitting. "

This actually refers to the type of trees. In Virgil's Georgics Book II, the poet puts all trees in three categories according to their means of propogation: trees multiplied by seeds from a parent plant like chestnut, those spread by roots (coppicing)like elms or oaks and then those trees which sprout up 'sua sponte', of their own will.

Whatever Palladio believed himself about the botany of aspens and willows that seem to sprout up from nothing along streambanks is moot since he was writing for a readership who would have understood such a literary allusion and respect for the past.

So, in fact, what Palladio is explaining is that extra care must be given to trees like aspen, willow, or even alder, which grow in waterlogged areas, and are especially prone to splitting unless it is allowed to dry out slowly with dung smothered over it to slow down the drying process.

Finally a use for a liberal arts education!

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#5

Superb!

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Thanks Mitchell, we learn a little every day. I am obliged that, today, you are the teacher.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#6

Re: Moon phases

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I am not really educated enough, and actually am not positive that we know enough, to determine whether the phase of the mooon has any effect on timber drying or felling. I do know that I used to have an aunt who would only wash her hair during the waning of the moon, otherwise she insisted it would become unruly and not lay flat. I have other relatives who plant there gardens, build fences and houses, and numerous other items regulated according to the moon phase. I can remember them arguing about it when I was a young child. I think these beliefs used to have a very large impact on people's lives, but with "modern science" has been largely forgotten; but who is to say it's nonsense?

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#7

Remember who Palladio was

Howard Pollack

>It's worth while remembering that Palladio was probably the most influential architect of all time. Just look at all of those Federal buildings, banks, temples and court houses- those are Palladio's off-spring. He must have known something. Several of his houses are still standing in the Veneto of Italy hundreds of years later. -Howard

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#8

I'm impressed!

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>A reference to Virgil in a woodworking forum! :-)

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#9

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

Tom Sontag - St. Louis

>"Finally a use for a liberal arts education!"

Actually, that the thing about a liberal arts degree. It is always useful, but primarily in the background. Note we did not pay you for the information!

Nice tidbit - it was the reason I asked!

Tom, a finance major.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#10

I've never heard of Palladio

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Apparently I skipped school that day or something. I'll have to Google him up and see what great things he contributed to man-kind. It always fascinates me how folks from "ancient times" still influence our lives with the discoveries that they made.

This brings up a question I've always wondered about. Do you suppose that they where smarter than we are, or was it that there was just so much more to be discovered then than there is now? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. And who is this Virgil guy?

Todd O.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#11

Re: I've never heard of Palladio

joel

>"....This brings up a question I've always wondered about. Do you suppose that they where smarter than we are, or was it that there was just so much more to be discovered then than there is now? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....."

No TV

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#12

Re: I've never heard of Palladio

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>http://www.boglewood.com/palladio/life.html

Did a bit of Googling using Palladio as the searchword and found plenty on him. For those whom also have never heard of him the link above will give you a brief into on him.

Learn something new everyday.

Todd O.

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#13

Good point Joel

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>

Re: Palladio and his "Of Timber"

#14

Re: I've never heard of Palladio

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Palladio's Four Books of Architecture has been reprinted by Dover Publications. List price is $18.95, and you can sometimes find it in stock at B&N or Borders. I have a copy on my desk, even closer at hand than Nutting, Chippendale, Sack, Hoadley, etc. I find it very useful for the study of proportion, the classic orders, and excellent examples of molding details and other ornamentation.

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.