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Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

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Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#1

Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

Dave Mount, northeastern MN

>All�

I�ve developed this huge itch to make side escapement molding planes. This started with the idea of making a pair of match planes, but has since expanded to maybe some hollows and rounds and/or very simple moldings. I�ve been doing a bunch of reading, both books (Dunbar, Whelan, Hack) and on the net (archives of this board and oldtools, Scott Post�s page and others). I�ve learned a ton and feel I have a good understanding of the process and what�s in front of me.

Of all the steps, cutting the wedge mortise is clearly the one that gives me the most trepidation. As a power woodworker moving toward hand tools (not that I�ve sold any power tools. . .yet), and one that plans to (gasp) use power tools in this process where effective, at least initially, my immediate reaction to this issue is to resaw the left side off the plane blank, rejoint the faces, cut the wedge mortise as an open mortise, then reglue. It just seems to me that I have a far better chance of getting the wedge mortise straight, flat, and aligned with the rest of the bed if I do it this way.

However, in my reading I�ve seen lots of disparaging comments relative to laminating planes. Most of these are kind of vague, with some reference to moisture exchange. The only more thorough discussion I�ve seen is on the Clark and Williams page, where they advocate strongly against lamination. From that discussion, I distill three issues: 1) potential for warp from dissimilar movement of dissimilar woods (this seems more in the context of laminated soles on bench planes); 2) potential for delamination from excessive moisture (a historical reference, probably relative to hide glue); and 3) glue line interference with moisture equlibration. While it seems crazy to question opinions from people with their experience and qualifications, I�m left unsure as to whether that really means I shouldn�t build, at least at first, with a lamination approach. The risks they describe seem small compared to the risks of not getting the wedge mortise right, especially if I: 1) resaw the lamination from the same original blank (no dissimilar wood or orientation); 2) use poly glue; and 3) stick to relatively narrow profiles.

So my question (finally) is, is this issue one of 95% versus 100% quality, or am I headed for real disappointment? Again, tempering the decision is my inexperience with making these planes, and also the fact that I don�t have floats, and am anxious to focus my immediate time/money on building planes not making/buying floats (unless that�s penny wise and pound foolish).

So what are folks� thoughts on this? Seems like this must have been discussed at length before, but if you refer me to the archives, it would be a courtesy if you�d steer me to the specific thread (or a way to locate it), because I�ve searched the archives hard with terms as general as �molding plane� and not turned up the right stuff.

Anxious to hear,

Dave

Dave Mount, Two Harbors, MN

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#2

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I highly recommend Tod Herrli's video as part of your preparation. You can get it via his planemaking classes page.

Pam


Planemaking Classes

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#3

molding planes (short ramble)

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Dave,

I'm not here to give you any advice; I'm just about to embark upon the same road as you. I'm still waiting for my steel to arrive to make the blades and floats (I decided to mortise, but I'll be following this thread closely).

I can maybe add an element for discussion. I remember about a year ago (or was it 2?) a guy named Thom used to post here; he seemed very knowledgeable and there were some very interesting discussions on laminating and planes between him, Steve Knight, Larry Williams and Konrad Sauer. I couldn't find anything in the archives, but if I remember correctly the jist of the discussion was that certain waterproof glues (epoxy was mentioned mostly) stop moisture flow and cause the wood laminations to warp unevenly, as you said. One solution, this Thom fellow seemed to suggest, was using regular yellow glue instead of waterproof glues (your poly glue comes to mind here). Even though it is not as strong, the discussion went, it would last longer because it lets the moisture pass through. There was also something said about the West Bend (sp?)system but I can't remember what.

Hope the more experienced can comment on this.

Regards,

Frank

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#4

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb

Scott Post

>I've built several molding planes from glued up stock (regular yellow glue) and never had a problem. Much as I'd like to believe some of the "con" arguments to using glued up stock, I believe they're mostly theoretical. None of my laminated planes have warped and Tod Herrli has been making them that way for years. Folks who make Krenov style planes also laminate without any issues.

My issue with laminating is purely aesthetic: I think it's ugly. I wouldn't have glued up stock for any of my planes if thick beech were easier to come by. I had a beech sawn last year that should provide enough plane blanks for a few lifetimes, so I won't be laminating any more planes.

Don't be intimidated by the wedge mortise - it's not that hard. I just woke up from a nap so I'm a bit fuzzy headed, but I can't think of any reason why it'd matter if the mortise is a hair off vertical. You match the iron to the sole at the very end of making the plane so what difference does it make if it leans a little?

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#5

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb

steve knight

>So far the only real problems I have had with gluing up planes are when the wood is not fully acclimated to my shop. What happens is the sides would dry faster then the main body and pull away. Or say the sole wood was not dry enough it would pull away from one side and leave a gap.

So yes the laminates dry at different rates but once everything is equal it seems to be ok. This taught me to really check every piece of wood I work with. Some woods are worse then others. Cocobolo is really bad about this. Most oily woods are.

So I think the only real problem is to make sure your wood is fully dry.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#6

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb

Charles

>I have never made a plane but have read several articles on them. My suggestions are

1. To use a wood like mesquite. It does not move much T/R%. It is a very pretty wood if only heartwood is used.

2. Separate the two pieces and make the bevel for the blade assembly. Make sliding dovetails to put the two pieces together. Use glue with it or epoxy. I think it would look cool with the dovetails. At least it would be different.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#7

If wood movement is a problem...

Bob Hackett

>why do infills not come apart more often?The wood is constantly expanding and contracting as it absorbs and gives off moisture while the metal doesn`t move.I`d think that if you substituted dowels for the metal rods that pass thru an infill it would do the same thing wouldn`t it?

I also think the idea of using a more stable wood,like QS mesquite,can go a long way toward setting oneself up for success instead of failure.

Has anyone here ever clad the sides of a molding or rebate plane with metal?I`ve been thinking about doing this.I have a skewed rebate from the UK that has a gunmetal sole.Why not sides?I know,I know,I`d just be making a high angle shoulder plane like HNT Gordon with a wood sole but the idea of the ease of machining all the critical areas is sort of attractive.It`d be easy to incorporate an adjustable mouth too.Then again,it may just be my meds kicking in.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#8

If pigs had wings

jim_reed@marietta

>they would fly. By the same token, if the planemakers of old had electric bandsaws and good glue, they probably would not have spent so much time gnawing out those pesky mortices by hand. I say split your beech, cut the mortice out of the middle, and then glue everything back together in its own saw kerf. It would be a kick a** plane. By the way, I found doing mouldings that York pitch is a necessity if you are working hardwoods. Most old moulders you see are carpentry planes and made (pitched) for soft woods. York pitch (50 degrees and better) moulders really scrape more than cut and produce almost no tearout in hardwoods like cherry.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#9

Re: If pigs had wings

Scott Post

>By the same token, if the planemakers of old had electric bandsaws and good glue, they probably would not have spent so much time gnawing out those pesky mortices by hand.

I seriously doubt that. A skilled craftsman can chop a mortise a whole lot faster than he can resaw a blank, cut the bed and breast lines with a saw, chop out the waste, and reglue the blank. The glue setting time alone would have made it an unprofitable way to go. If you ever get a chance to watch Tod Herrli or Larry Williams at work you'll agree.

I've never done a molding plane that way, but I've made bench planes both ways and chopping the mortise out of a solid blank is considerably faster than making one by laminating ala Krenov. It takes more skill, but it's a whole lot quicker.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#10

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb *LINK*

L. Hanson - N. Idaho

>I would also absolutely suggest Todd Herrli's video - excellent quality stuff. He covers all of the bases quite well.

I'm also heading down the same road, but my experience tells me there is no inherent problem with laminating wood together for planes - it's what I'm doing right now with some beech and purpleheart (see photo below). I've also got another bench plane in progress where I'm using laminations... Besides not being able to find thicker wood, I'd probably be much too cheap to buy it if I did...

I've done a prototype smoother for myself in maple using laminations, and it shows no problems yet. I chopped the mortise out with chisels after laminating it together, and it went pretty fast, and wasn't nearly as hard as you'd think. I believe the same is going to be true of molding planes. I've done dozens of totes for planes with much the same method, and it not that daunting after you've done the first couple.

As an aside - I would suggest some method of floats, whether they are plane floats or a hardened flat chisel. The floats I made are working great for me, and they aren't that hard to make. I've done a thing on making them on my web site, if you're interested.


img

Norsewoodsmith.com

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#11

Jack Guzman from Maine

OT question(mini hijack?)

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I notice alot of mention of Todd Herrli's video. I plan on getting it. Does he go into screw arm plow planes?---Jack

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#12

Re: OT question(mini hijack?)

joel

>no - the video only covers making a pair of hollows and rounds.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#13

Re: chopping mortices

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Can you point me to some on-line instructions on how these mortices are chopped? I would be intersted in learning more about making planes without laminating.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#14

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>Scott nailed it (twice) above. There is nothing evil about laminations, but they are not going to save you much time overall in a non-production run. Once you have your first or second through mortise behind you, they are actually pretty quick to do, even without proper floats (I use cheap chisels with a near-vertical bevel as scrapers--slower, but it will get you there).

Three suggestions....

First, it is not absolutely necessary to use perfectly quartersawn stock; there are plenty of old molders around that are rift- or even plain-sawn. Yes, they probably wiggle a bit more in the weather, but the plane is going to be fairly short, so movement will be minor.

Second (and going against the first), if you are worried about movement, cherry is a decent plane wood that is fairly easy to find quartersawn and in thicknesses appropriate for plane making, and is very stable. It works well, and unless you plan on doing *many* hundreds of linear feet of a particular profile, will be plenty durable.

Finally, you can save time over through mortising or laminating by making them open throated. I do all of mine this way now, only mortising rabbet/filletsters. Yes, they might be more warp prone over time, but this is a good way to get a few under your belt so that you can work out the process of profiling the sole, matching the iron, and spend more time overall in using them than making them.

Oops--a fourth. If you decide to go the through-mortis route, one of the trickiest parts of the process is getting the initial hole bored perfectly vertical and at the right angle. The angle can be off a few degrees either direction without affecting function, but to get the vertical angle perfect (more important for rabbet and othter flat-bottomed planes), bore it as close as you can get it, level the sides of an oversized blank to an even offset, and then square the top and bottom. Dead vertical every time.




/jvs

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#15

Re: OT question(mini hijack?)

Scott Post

>Tod's video only covers making hollows and rounds, but the concepts are easy to extend to any molding plane. If you want to make a plow plane I'd recommend watching Tod's video then buying a copy of John Whelan's "Making Traditional Wooden Planes" which covers making a plow. I've made a plow plane and it was easier than a molding plane because there's no side escapement to line up with the mortise. I used low carbon steel for the skate dressed up with brass from an old door kick plate. It was wedge armed rather than screw armed because I didn't feel like making a thread box.


img

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#16

Jack Guzman from Maine

Re: OT question(mini hijack?)

Jack Guzman from Maine

>That makes sense. The screws just aren't necessary for the plane to be functional. ---Jack

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#17

Re: OT question(mini hijack?)

L. Hanson - N. Idaho

>Scott - that's a very pretty plane - Very Nice Work!

AND - I'd like to thank you so very much for the stuff you put on your web site... I've read though all of your planemaking stuff a couple time at least, and reference it all the time. Very inspirational!

L. Hanson

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#18

Laminating planes

Cameron

>Lamination in itself is not a problem. Using the right wood can be. Making sure that the wood has acclimatized to your workshop is paramount. It doesn't matter if the wood is bone dry or at 15% moisture - as long as it's had time to acclimatize to the room it's going to be staying in for the rest of it's life.

Many makers use laminations for their planes including Krenov, Leon Robbins, HNT Gordon (I think he's done some) and others. I've also used the method many times over with no ill affects.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#19

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramb

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>I am going to stick my foot in it here. First: WARNING, I have never made a plane.

I remember the discussion about this, and I think that it was on Badger Pond. I was very interested, and corresponded with Larry Williams offline to get some clarifications.

IIRC, he said that the problem is worst in a narrow, side-escapement plane like a hollow/round, because of the missing wood (as compared to a block of wood), and the dimensions. He said that the planes absorb and release moisture with the seasons to reach equilibrium moisture content, and that glue lines interfere with the transmission of the moisture, and so can delay the achievement of equilibrium. In a partial equilibrium state, with different areas of the plane with different moisture content, one is likely to have a slightly warped plane. In the worst case, the plane will spend a lot of time warped, trying to follow the environmental moisture changes.

Anyway, that is what I got from the conversations. I may recall it wrongly. YMMV. IANAE. Etc., etc., etc.

Re: Laminating side esc. molding planes (long ramble)

#20

Re: chopping mortices

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>If there was one on-line, I guess someone would have coughed it up by now--don't know of any myself. Texts that I have (Whelan, Odate, Pierce, et. al.) describe it similarly, and without a whole bunch of fine points, other than repeated use of the words "care," "careful," and "carefully".

Start by drilling a series of holes for either the mouth (small ones) or the top of the throat (bigger ones), chop through on a consistent plane with something pointy, level the bed, preferably with one of those nifty floats that I haven't made yet and that you cannot buy or a steep-beveled wide chisel, cut the abutments with a flush saw, and profile the rest of the throat area to make it look like the inside of a plane.

Whelan's "Making Traditional Wooden Planes" goes into more of the fine points than any other book I have, and goes into detail on how to make sure that the bed is level and in the right presentation to the bottom (forgot the geometric term, and don't have the book in front of me). Not all that difficult, and faster than making a cross-pin plane once you have gone through things for the first time or two (the last statement may not apply to Live Oak if I ever get my hands on some, but Beech, hard Maple, and Cherry are all very workable for this).




/jvs

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