Singing handsaws and saw quality

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I am not a metallurgist, but in my opinion this is a load of crap. My dad of course tried to teach me that you could tell how good a handsaw is by the music. All you need is a piece of metal that will retain sharpness while not being too brittle so the teeth break off, and retain a nice straight line when you push on it (western saws). The old blades that were hammered thinner in the center than they are on the edges I think make a better saw, and this hammering may make it sing nicely; I have some really good saws that can't hold a note as well as I can. How do you make a back saw sing?

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality *LINK*

Roy from Cincy

>A quick google search reveals that musical saws are thinner, deeper, made from a softer, more pliable steel and the teeth have no set. So I would guess they would be really terrible wood sawing saws. Here is one of the links that I found.


http://classics.nu/history.htm

Re: Herpetology vs. Ornithology

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>I've been ranting about this phenomenon just now w.r.t. smoothing planes. Planes and saws should hiss, not sing. Singing helps if you are a songbird, but not if you are cutting wood. There's nothing more frustrating than a saw that thinks it belongs in an orchestra when you think it should be cutting. Machines sharpen saws with very precisely spaced teeth, which causes them to sing, and the free end to oscillate like a hognosed snake pretending to be a rattler.

These oscillations do two things: they slow down (from a Western saw perspective) your retraction of the saw back through the kerf, and they make those nefarious wiggling sawn ridges in the wood you are trying to cut smoothly.

Neither a saw nor a plane should sing. They should, when properly tuned and sharpened, hiss. White noise should be your goal. The minor inconsistencies in tooth spacing, that are introduced when you hand sharpen your saws, dampen vibrations. Your energy is thus optimized to converting solid wood into sawdust, instead of anealing saw steel and burning wood and aching muscles and making music.

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality *LINK*

David Barnett

>From "Lark in the Morning":

"The musical saw dates back to the 12th century. Around 1917-1918 two workers in the steel mill in Sandviken got together and built a small musical saw. In 1919 at the village of Forsbacka, Martin Larsson borrowed his father's handsaw and played it with his violin bow. A foreman at the Sandvik Steel Works who was a violinist carried out a series of tests to make the best possible Musical Saw, the Sandvik Stradivarius. We offer the best quality musical saw: the Sandvik Stradivarius. Each of these saws are made from cold-rolled hardened and tempered strip steel which is cut to shape. The teeth are punched out and sharpened and the blade is Tensioned by a rolling and hammering process. The handle is attached and before packing every saw is test-played by a "violinist". Only about 500 of these saws are made each year. Each saw is labeled Stradivarius. Most of the world's professional players use this saw. We offer these fine saws for $70.00."


Sandvik and Blacklock musical saws

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

Todd Hughes

>I agree....sort of. I have had a few Musical saws and they appear that the blades are not tapered ground like a good saw and just not made as well but I guess they "sing" fine. But a high quality saw like a Disston No. 12 made out of London Spring Steel and if in excellent condition will if tapped "sing" much better then say a D7 or D8. I have had ones if you just wiggle the blade it hums.

Still I don't think bending saws into a S to see if they sing is a good way to find a high quality saw........Todd

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

David Miller from Iowa

>In my experience, any properly sharpened and set handsaw that has a good bottom-to-top taper will work fine. While there are definitely differences in the steel, and therefore the �singing�, I�ve found that the major differences in the steel quality only start to show after considerable post-sharpening sawing. The good steel will keep an edge longer.

As an experiment, I just went out to the shop and twanged all my saws (you need the S curve to get them to sing). The best sound in the shop was a Bishop Cincinnati (pre 1899) that was badly tempered and I finally gave up trying to set because the teeth kept breaking off.

In summary, leave the music to musicians and the sawing to sawyers as the two magisteria shall never meet.

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't know one way or the other; but my hand made Japanese saws definitely have a nice ring with the least provocation.

Pam

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

Rick R, So Cal

>Hi All,

Thanks for de-bunking the myth. I was suspicious, but then I read an old Fine Homebuilding article where Tom Law states it as fact. Goes to show that you can't believe everything you read. So I will use the Nicholson for sharpening practice and see how it cuts and how well it keeps an edge compared to the others.

Thanks for all the informative responses.

Rick

Not so fast

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'll ask around here at the office. I think there's something to it. Well,...obviously there's something to it. The question is only, is it meaningful to us. The ability to continue vibrating, and thats what we're talking about, is a function of the lack of damping, isn't it?

Just guessing, I'd say the singing saw has good uniform thickness and hardness/elasticity. Could be that a very small ding or crease would locally work harden the material and serve as a dampener.

In my experience, these old stories have the nasty habit of being true once we bother to understand...Singing saws could be like chicken soup for head colds.

Let's not dismiss this so quickly. Just so happens, my favorite saws are good ringers.

Adam

What is london spring steel

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>What is London spring steel? Didn't Disston make his own steel right here in the good ole US of A? Is it any different than crucible steel?

Re: What is london spring steel *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Also this link:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/summer98/summer98.html

Looks as though it was imported into the US and labelled as such to explain the higher price.

Cheers,

Andrew


http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html

Re: Not so fast

paul womack

>these old stories have the nasty habit of being true once we bother to understand.

I suggest you change that to "...someold stories....

With regard to "old wisdom", I find the observations are normally quite accurate, but explanations poor.

BugBear

Re: Singing handsaws and saw quality

paul womack

>I have had a few Musical saws and they appear that the blades are not tapered ground

Taper grinding may be an excellent feature on a saw that has to travel through its own kerf, but it's a pointless thing to do to a musical saw. So I don't think the lack of taper grinding means that musical saws are (on this basis alone) of lesser quality.

BugBear