Charlesworth ruler? Alf?

A few notes on Japanese planes

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Bob,

This is in partial answer to your question, in addition to Pam's remarks. One of the key things about Japanese planes is that the abutments are straight, but the blade is slightly curved along its length. This is in addition to the curve across its width.

As you hammer the curved blade down into the straight abutments, the blade becomes sprung in the dai. This is a key factor in keeping the blade well-fit to the dai over time, though it will eventually wear out as Pam says. This is also why when flattening the back of a Japanese blade, you want to just flatten the land above the cutting edge--not the whole blade back. That is, you want to maintain the original curvature of the blade and not lap it out.

The dai's grip on the sprung blade is strong enough that some folks don't even use the chipbreaker (or subblade) to wedge the plane blade--the plane will work well taking light cuts (polishing) without it. The subblade can be very useful for stabilizing the blade edge against deflection in heavier cuts, and is set very close to the edge for this reason.

This use of a sprung blade is a key difference between Japanese and western woodies.

Wiley

Re: Cringing

TMStock

>Did this; works about as well as a HA frog; too damn fussy. Killed an hour of quiet time (0600-1000 Sat or Sun when the girls sleep in) - interesting...but def not that interesting.

Re: A few notes on Japanese planes

Bob Hackett

>This may explain some of the problems I have with the smoother I have.The iron`s back was flattened and after tapping the iron out I just continued flattening till the edge was flat to about 1/16" wide at it`s most narrow point.The scratch pattern ran evenly up both sides of the hollow both before and after I worked the back.

I`m assuming the previous owner was stumped as to what to do after he honed the bevel into the hollow and just shelved the plane.It may be a safe assumption to say he flattened the back and bed just because that`s what his experience was with his western planes.I paid $5 for the grey and rust disaster thinking I could use the iron for something.Beneath the grey and black staining there was a beautiful,figured piece of oak that reminded me of our live oak.

The plane works as is with the paper shims I placed under the abutments.It`s finicky to adjust and will not hold an adjustment during a heavy cut,so I use it to take only light cuts.There is no sub blade and the hole that would hold the pin for it is in poor shape(it had a 10 penny nail in it when I got it).If I were to drill it out to clean it up and put an oversize pin in it and add a sub blade would it help to make up for the fact that the bed has been flattened?Would it be worthwhile to try putting some spring back into the iron?

My other japanese plane is a very small block type plane that I bought for $.25 at a garage sale.The fellow said it was a "cheap chinese plane,judging by the writing".The iron on that one would be too small to readily show any spring,I`ll check it tomorrow alittle more closely.I can see where the sprung iron would help with blade retention.The small plane acts more like I had expected a japanese plane to act.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Cringing

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>For a metal plane (if we're talking Bailey-type planes, all I'm familiar with), the slight deviation from flat involved shouldn't matter - most stock chipbreakers curl up and then down and are arched along their length - they would "set down" on the back surface near the edge, same as if the back were entirely flat.

I've been following this thread with some interest. Although I must confess the idea seems like cheating and that a true flat back would be better somehow, I appreciate the creativity Mr. Charlesworth shows.

Would not this slight back bevel mean a degree or so higher pitch to the iron, too? We're always after higher-pitch planes...

Exactly!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>

Re: A few notes on Japanese planes--and an offer

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Bob,

Hey, you get a campaign ribbon for that tapping out! What kinda hammer did you use?

Here's just a coupla thoughts on your smoother. I don't know if there's any one correct answer as to what to do next. A Japanese carpenter would make a new dai. But short of that, if it were my plane, I would break it down into small, doable steps. First thing, get it working right as a single blade (no subblade) plane. You can still add a subblade later, if you come across one, so you won't have lost anything by setting it up now to work with just the main blade.

After I read your post last night, I went and shimmed an old plane to get the whole business fresh in mind. You can use either 100% cotton rag bond, or else thin shavings of wood, and glue them in. What I did was take a piece of stationery and cut several pieces to fit the bed, and then by trial fitting checked how many pieces it took to get a tight fit with the main blade. It took 3 pieces--4 was too many. I miked the three pieces, and they measured 0.016". Now I could have just glued them in But I had some old maple shim stock I had planed down, that miked 0.0140", and used that instead. It worked pretty well, but today I am going to go pencil the bedding face of the iron and detail the bed by tapping the blade in and seeing where the high spots are, and filing them down. You don't want to use a chisel for this--use a file or scraper. It's like a machinist using the spot-and-scrape method for getting a fit. Oh, to get a good fit with the maple, I had to use two strips, and cut a 'Dutchman' to get it exactly the width of the bed.

After you do this, see if the plane works well. It should be plenty tight, even though it's not sprung. Now if you're ambitious, or not satisfied, you can relieve the backside of the blade to create some spring. How much? I'll test it for you with a feeler gauge if you want, but here's maybe a better suggestion:

It struck me last night that maybe we could use the Japanese plane I just set up as a traveling one, and send it around to people having issues with their Japanese planes. I'm not really using it anymore, even though it's a perfectly good plane. Or will be as soon as I complete the setup today. It's got an Ishida blade, from Hida Tool, and a nice dai. So if you want, I can send you this plane, all set up, and you can test it, and study it all you want, and make a better decision what to do with your smoother.

Let me know. Wiley

Re: Charlesworth ruler? Alf?

MarkSmith

>I've spent a lot of time honing the back of the blade until I was blue in the face. The results were adequate at best. I haven't spent hours on a single blade, I admit, so maybe that was my mistake. On the other hand, I don't have the patience.

When I started using Charlesworth's technique, on the advice of the Lie-Nielsen website, I noticed a dramatic improvement, at least 2-fold. It really works and works very well, in my opinion. I am a definite convert.

I don't think it should be considered to ruin the blade. It appears to be reversible. The little microbevel on the back of the blade is very narrow. If you try it but really, really hate the result, why not just grind the blade until you get past the microbevel? Warning: I haven't done this myself.

I don`t know what to say,except thanks.

Bob Hackett

>Thank you for both The in depth reply and the more than generous offer.While I may take you up on the loan of the plane I`d like to ask yet another favor.If you have a camera could you post some pics here with a short explanation so everyone can see what`s going on?Surely I`m not the only one floundering around trying to sort out the whole east/west differences thing.Pics may work for me as well as others reading this.

BTW-I used a auto body hammer to tap the blade out.As out friends down under would say"It worked a treat".Seeing as how I only paid $5 for the plane there was little to scare me off.I learned quite a bit both during the research beforehand and while actually doing the process.I sure would have hated to ruin such a beautiful piece of steel.I also felt it had suffered enough at the previous owner`s hand.

Thanks again for your informative reply and kind offer.

Mainely,Bob

Bob, I'll see what I can do

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>about getting photos that might help understand what's going on with a Japanese plane (not that I'm an expert--I'm far from it). I should also mention that Harrelson Stanley's video 'Kanna' (www.japanesetools.com) is the place to start. It's truly amazing how much complexity and subtlety is involved in what looks like a piece of steel wedged into a square block of white oak.

Also, the offer of a travelling loaner plane goes for others on this forum as well, and anyone is welcome to contact me offline about this. The devil is in the details with Japanese planes, and you never know how close you are to success until you can compare with a working plane. I will write you offline about it.

Wiley

Re: Bob, I'll see what I can do

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, you beat me to the punch. I was going to offer to make Bob a sample dai if he sent me the blade(s); but your offer is better. Also, thanks for clearing up the terminology that made everything much more explicit.

I also agree that the Kanna dvd is a great place to start. It's wonderful instruction.

Pam

WOW!!

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hey Pam,

That is a HUGE offer. A new dai from someone who's dai's have won in competition. I think it'd be great to see Bob's beater plane turn into a swan.

Well, Bob can decide what way to go, and my offer can stand for everyone. Bob, do you see what trouble you can get into by making a little post about Japanese tools?

Wiley

Well...

Bob Hackett

>I figured if I was going to wade off into it there`s no better place than here.Isn`t it always the case where the things which look most simple are in fact the most complex?

I`m still in favor of the pics idea as it will help the most number of people.A loaner will be an alternate plan.A new dai would be the easy way out but unless I could be there during it`s construction I`d be no closer to understanding how and why things need to be the way they are.Thanks for the offer though Pam.

As the old eastern proverb goes,"I hear and I forget,I see and I remember,I do and I understand".I`d like the chance to understand why there`s such a difference in the workings of planes from downeast and the far east.

I do know that the first time I took a shaving with that japanese plane,even in it`s present state,it was an eye opener.I`d like to help that iron live up to it`s full potential.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Well...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I couldn't agree more, you'll learn a lot more by doing it. OTOH, if you were to find yourself in Texas some day soon, we could build one is less than a day.

BTW, be sure and bring a Japanese blank or a blank of live oak. I was going to make one out of beech for you; but that's probably not good enough to use for very long.

Pam

OK! Good all around...

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Bob,

I'll contact you off line.

Wiley

P. S. on Photos

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>I'll try to get some photos taken, developed, and posted in about a week. Hopefully, Pam and others will pitch in with their own observations and photos and we can have an extended 'show and tell' session.

Wiley