Opinion rant (long)

My opinion

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I respectfully disagree. (but I've come to this recently)

I used to feel strongly that guys should stay on topic. Its a similar sentiment. I made my feelings known and changed my mind as result of the responses I received.

This is a public forum, not a woodworking text book. We should encourage all potential participants. The reader is smart enough to sort it out. Its easy, as one responder said, to hit the delete button and move on. This is as much a response to Bill Tindall's thread below as yours. Don't think I'm picking on you!

Tony, lets try looking at it this way; There's so much to learn and so little time left in our lives. We may find that the one guy who really understands how a center bit or plane works who's devoted years to the subject, has never built a piece of furniture. Should we discount that guy's opinions? Discourage him from posting?

I know you're not suggesting that, but I think it could become the unfortunate consequence of a litmus test. I offer www.sapfm.org as an example. IMHO there's a lot more information about building period furniture here than there.

That said, and not to sound too touchy-feely, I understand your sentiments. I guess I'm not comfortable we can act on them in any way.

Regards,

Adam

Re: Opinion rant (long)

Patrick Gibbons

>I understand your meaning. As I have gained more experience I have found myself saying less and reading more. I think many of my posts have been well-meaning but not from a great deal of experience. My work schedule is such that it will be a long time before that experience is substantially increased. However reading, and sometimes contributing, has many times led to a change of opinion for me. And often times those with less experience overall are the ones who have a message that pertains to my stage of development. In the end it's mostly opinion anyway.

Re: My opinion

John Weber - GO BUCKS!

>I'm not sure where this goes, so I'll add it here. I recently took a hand plane class with Tom Lie Nielsen and David Charlesworth, I was talking to Tom and asked him about his woodworking/hobbies. He said he didn't do any woodworking (although he's been around it his whole life starting with his Dad's boat building shop), one of his main hobbies is gardening. He can plane and sharpen with the best, and has a wealth of knowledge, but would be pressed to provide a list of complete ww projects. I agree we all have knowledge and can learn from others eventhough thier background may not mirror our own.

John

Re: Opinion rant (long)

Bob Hackett

>I feel that everyone has something of value to say,if you listen long enough.

My experience is heavily weighted toward metalworking and woodturning.I`ve never carved a ball+claw foot or built any Federal or Chippendale furniture.My tastes go more toward Nakashima and Shaker,but I`m always looking.

I tend to watch and ask questions when something is happening that is new to me or interests me.If the solution seems reasonable and the outcome was good,I try the process myself.If I get good results I file the info away and share it when I can.If I`ve only heard that something works I prefer to steer someone to the source or what I know to be experts in the field.

I feel everyone here runs by the same guidelines I do and that`s why I keep coming back to read everyday and post when I feel I can help.I can`t remember ever reading a post that knowingly steered a person in the wrong direction.

I also have found that a great solution can also come from a person very new to WWing.A new WWer doesn`t have alot of preconcieved notions about how things "must" be done.They are more apt to think outside the box.They many times attempt to apply an approach that worked in another medium(that an experienced WWer wouldn`t know about) to good effect.Just because a person took up WWing last week after retiring from being a machinist for 30+ years doesn`t mean they bring nothing to the table.

My wife and daughter have no interest or experience in WWing,they only want to take part in the planning and reap the rewards of the finished products.Some of the best common sense approaches to my WWing problems have come from them as they check on progess of "thier" new piece.Most start with"How come you do it that way?".From the mouth of babes,as the saying goes.

Mainely,Bob

My simple solution...

David Barnett

>...will be to include the following before each posting:

IMPORTANT!

Disclaimer: The following response is offered only for entertainment purposes and should not be construed to issue from a "Professional Woodworker", per se, or anyone who derives his/her living from woodworking trades, not exclusive to or limited by the following: joiners, cabinetmakers, carvers/sculptors, turners/bodgers, marquetarians/intarisians, modelmakers, and/or those who make replicas of edifices/structures such as the Golden Gate Bridge from toothpicks, but could as likely issue from a self-serving dilettante, poseur/provocateur, or tool catalog addict with little or no actual woodworking knowledge or experience (spending most of his/her discretionary leisure on this forum rather than in his/her workshop, atelier, etc.), amateur or otherwise, for the purpose or purposes of self-aggrandizement, recherch� provocation and/or intimidation, which may induce, purposely or otherwise, erroneous self-appraisal including but not limited to the following: severe underestimation or overestimation of skill sufficiency, talent adequacy, and most egregiously, lowered self-esteem due to deficiencies in tool ownership, perceived or actual.

PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Can of worms

Jonathan Peck -N.Y.

>Lets get back to the original point for a moment. A beginner asks what should my first plane be, and is told that one plane can do it all. I think it an important demarkation that the person recommending the one plane approach has a bevy of power tools at his disposal.

If you read my first reply you might understand that I do not disclaim responsibility for my comments nor do I claim superior ability or knowlege and take exception to self agrandizement no matter whom this is directed towards. If in fact your post is a joke then never mind

"Jane,

A good place to start is with Patrick's B&G. You'll like the no nonsense approach to Stanley bench planes by the numbers. A good first plane could be a low angle block plane or a Jack. The jack will do alot of things pretty well and is a good versitile plane. It will serve you well until you start to aquire dedicated use planes such as a scrub, jointer and smoother, but much depends on what type of work, joinery and stock you plan to work with, and if you plan to also use power tools.

Perhaps you can tell us what your first project is"

I beg your pardon, ...

David Barnett

>...but what in the wide wide world of sports are you babbling about? What did my post have to do with you? Or what does your post have to do with me? And what caused you take offence? And why could you not readily identify this as, well...

apparently-attempted humor, if not humor outright? I mean, toothpick bridge builders? Okay, I'll take my medication if you take yours. Fair enough? And who is "Jane", anyway?

Disclaimer: The above is not intended to be taken seriously.

Group hug

Jonathan Peck -N.Y.

>

Re: Group hug

David Barnett

>Hahaha, thanks! Actually, I was wondering if you somehow inadvertantly accidently responded to my prior message by mistake (now how many redundancies is that?). Perhaps it related somehow to a different thread altogether; one which I've apparently not read? I'm still baffled as to how it relates to Jane or Monsieur Leach. I suppose stranger things have happened, though.

Re: Opinion rant (long)

Chris Knight

>This is as a much a community as anything else. If all you want is the experienced guys to contribute their know-how whenever someone asks a question then pretty soon they would stop answering the same questions over an over and go elsewhere.

This place is pretty self -regulating when it comes to silly answers - as long as the enquirer does not immediately rush out and stick his finger in the socket because someone told him that was the best way to check if it was 220 or 110, someone else, more knowledgeable will soon come along and put him right.

Relax and go with the flow.

Chris

Humility, civility, context

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>This place works pretty well, which is why it's the only one I visit every day and pretty nearly the only one I visit. Every once in a while, a thread will be unresponsive, or people will fail to recognize the context of the question, but not often.

I've tried to set the context of my posts - the fact that my hand tool experience has come way too much as a carpenter and not enough (for my desires) as a furnituremaker; whether what I posts is from direct, bleeding knowledge or from what I've read; etc. I don't always succeed, but I think this can be useful sometimes in our responses. I also recognize that I know 0.0034% of what others know, and try to convey that in my posts, but probably succeed even less often at that.

But I don't think we need to get either agitated or defensive about it all. This place works pretty well (oh, I said that already, didn't I?)

Re: My opinion

Tony Z.

>Adam, I'm not suggesting a litmus test by any means! I'm simply suggesting that people think twice and write once! And with this, I'll shut up about this topic!

Re: Humility, civility, context

Cameron

>What about the people who do more reading and only post occasionally? Are their posts to be taken less seriously because of what they haven't said, rather than what they have said?

For instance I often don't respond to a post because I know that someone else will - and I'm fairly sure that what the other person says will be, more or less, on the money. Therefore I don't "need" to say anything. There's also a time factor involved. I just don't have time to respond or post on every topic that takes my fancy.

Being primarily a "lurker" I suspect that there are more than a few of us out there who have opinions, thoughts, ideas etc but don't always feel the need to express them. That shouldn't make my (few) posts any less "worthy" just because I'm not a regular poster to the site. I just absorb the stuff that's interesting to me and leave the rest to others.

Re: Opinion rant (long)

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>If this were a medical forum, I would expect basically the same results; some younger doctors are posting things that may not necessarily work, and might end up actually resulting in the death of the patient rather than health. If a doctor uses bad advice, who is responsible? The doctor is reponsible for knowing his trade, and he is responsible for his choices. He should know better than to take bad advice. The advice may have been given with good or evil intentions; either way, if you use advice, you are responsible for your own choices. What we are coming to nowadays, and probably not just in America, is someone to sue every time we make a stupid decision; we are no longer held responsible for our own actions because someone else is to blame.

A forum is about brainstorming ideas; here is where the seeds for new discoveries and ideas are made. If we limit the input to only doing things one "right way" we are limiting creativity, originality, and growth. If you don't know whether something works or not, and take someone's advice and try it, you'll soon know, and you will have learned something; if you are wise, you will remember; a fool will make the same mistakes again next time.

Re: Opinion rant (long)

Steve Denvir

>Might I suggest that Bill's title sums up everything we need to make this forum work?

"Humility, civility, context "

Best

Steve

Colonial House on PBS

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Tony,

I get where you're going. I know you're not suggesting a litmus test. Like you, I'm going to say one more thing then shut up:

New York's PBS joined a British production team and filmed another info-tainment reality show set in 1628. The took very modern people and asked them to live as folks did 370 years ago. So when you think of a Pilgrim community in New England, you don't usually think about homosexuals, atheists, and feminists, yet that's excatly who the producers picked (I applied). By the way, the governor was a Baptist preacher from Waco, Texas.

Now my collegues at the museum were appalled by the choice of participants and were generally turned off by the whole show.

What I feel my friends failed to recognize was that the atheistic Vorhees family provided the conflict necessary for the shows producers to discuss 17th century attitudes. Without them, the subject never would have come up. Everyone would have gone happily to Sabbath day services and that would be that.

We need stupid questions (I don't think there's any such thing) and the occassional un-informed opinions to have the discussion that brings out the truth or helpfulness. It rarely happens that someone writes something inaccurate and gets away with it.

So rather than asking folks to think twice, the opposite may actually be a better idea. Let's encourage folks to ask questions, challenge us to figure out why we do stuff eand explain it.

Does that make sense?

Adam

P.S. They built a house in a month on Colonial House using period tools. We didn't hear much about it since the participants did really well with their tools. Apparently nobody complained, one guy cut himself, but they didn't discuss it. I noticed that they were replacing broken axe handles which seemed like a technique error to me.

Had they had a guy who was all thumbs and struggled with the tools, we might have learned more about using 17th century tools.

They had a neat pair of Dutch panel saws, and many pretty nice axes. I bet Peter Follansbee or Rob Tarule had their hands in that.

Little tadpoles like to croak, too

Roy from Cincy

>Hi, guys. I'm pretty much a beginner, but...

This is an interesting subject. I like to relay my experiences and get feedback from the big boys. Now, I'm scared that the big boys are going to look down their nose at me for giving bad advice or sumthin'.

Most of us don't have the luxury of an apprenticeship program, so this board is a great place to interact with those more experienced. However, from time to time, I'm gonna sound like a fool. I'm gonna start a self imposed rule. I'm gonna start every post with "I'm pretty much a beginner, but...." then if any of you take my advice, you're on your own.

Re: Colonial House on PBS

Bob Hackett

>I`ll get the women in my family to start posting right away!They have no trouble questioning everything I do and I have to explain every move I make when they`re around so...

Grab your video camera Adam,we may have a new PBS hit here.Now for the name.If it`s to be treated as a spinoff how about "This Old Spouse" or if my wife and daughter were to appear in the same episode,"The Really Cranky Workshop " may be appropriate.

If either of them see this post it`s a shoe-in for"Fear Factor".

Mainely,Bob

Re: Colonial House on PBS

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I turned that show on once expecting something interesting.What I saw(in my short visit)was petty squabbles and people grudgingly walking out into the fields to plant seed.The attitudes seemed out of period(spoiled city folks playing a stupid game)and the actors just appeared to be 21st century folks in costumes halfheartedly playing a game they didn't really like.

I guess I was expecting too much from hollywood.Maybe if I watched the whole series I would have liked it better,but the little I saw dashed my interest completely.---Jack

Wish I'd Said That

Todd Stock

>Must be the air in MI...a bit clearer there, eh Moses?

Re: Colonial House on PBS

Mike G.

>The wife tried to get me to watch that show. I stopped watching it when the Homosexual decided that this show would be a good medium for him to "come out". What a crock! If the show would have had any realism at all, he would have been burned at the stake.

YOU TOO?

Bruce, a MN galoot

>

You guys are making me nervous

Ted Owen, Moderator

>I've received one email complaint that this portion of the thread has become a little too ugly.

My feeling as Moderator is that it's borderline but not over the line. So I'm not going to delete or edit anything posted so far or ask that it end. But please be careful, respectful, and, for the most part, focused on woodworking.

Thanks,

Ted

Re: Little tadpoles like to croak, too

Tony Z.

>Now I know I promised to shut up on this topic, however to "Roy from Cincy", re-read my original post: I rate myself as prety much a beginner (at least in the hand-tool furniture category), albeit a 1-1/2 year old almost toddler beginner. My issue is more with so many posters offering suggestions, that, initially, I took all of the ones I tried at face value. I was asking for posters to consider those asking the questions.

Incidentally, Adam, I thought Colonial House one of the better offerings on TV of the season. My initial impression of what I thought I would see changed as I continued to watch. PBS reality show! Subsets amoung subsets amoung subsets.