LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions please

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas *LINK*

Harold Blair

>Derek: I can't comment on the LN straight handle, but their traditional Dovetail saw is awesome. I have cut hundreds of dovetails with it. Very accurate, starts easily (provided you use very light pressure) and remains sharp when using hardwoods. I too used to use Japanese saws but hardwoods render broken teeth to often so I went with the LN. Could not be more pleased. Harold


LN Dovetail Saw

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I used a LN straight-handled rip saw for a few minutes last fall in a class (I normally use Japanese saws these days, maybe a bow saw occasionally). It was fast and accurate, felt wonderful. If I wanted to replace a Japanese rip, which I don't because I no longer use the replaceable blade versions, I'd choose the LN.

Pam

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Dan Donaldson

>I have the LN Independence backsaw and the two straight handled dovetail ones. (all filed rip, 15 tooth on the Independence, and one 15 and one 10 on the straight handled ones). I have used both styles for DT's, but prefer the straight handles ones. It is a matter of personal preference and how you work, but for me, it is easier to get the cuts where I want them and at the proper angles with the straight handled saws. I think they are both great saws and you would be happy with whichever one fits your method or preference.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I concur. I have a beautiful Adria dovetail saw with an open handle, but I use my inexpensive crown saw with the straight handle more. I find the straight handle more accurate and comfortable to use, but this is just my personal preference and not a knock on any type of saw.

I use my left thumb as a fence (I'm right handed) when starting a cut. Interestingly, and not to stir the pot but....trends seem to be leaning towards less set, but I believe that a saw with more set is easier to steer. Also, an unevenly set saw will tend to wander some.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

David Linnabary

>The LN gents saw far exceeded my expectations on the first try. The ergonomics of a gents saw really are excellent in general and combined with LN's excellence in saw making, I really think it's a bargain. Tough to start? No not at all, light saws get a bad rep because people grip them too hard and they bounce. A two finger grip and stroking the full length of the blade will make this saw track well and cut very quickly.

It's a great saw around the shop but maybe a little vulnerable for the job site. Being long and thin make it a bit suseptable to being bent where the back meets the handle. A protective scabbard or a tube would be a good idea.

Good Luck

David

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

glh

>I haven't tried the LN straight handle, but I do have a few Japanese saws, including a dozuki, and a Bridge City version of the dozuki. They work fine but I prefer my LN independence dovetail saw for dovetails. The reason has more to do with my sawing ability than anything else. Clearly, the pull stroke (I don't know if the LN straight handle is pull or push.) cuts more easily and you get a smaller kerf and better finish, but I find the LN dovetail tracks better. If I get things started right, it's more difficult for me to goof up with it. I also use a fret saw to remove the bulk of the waste and the kerf on my dozuki isn't large enough for me to easily get my fret blade in.

Perhaps, I should spend more time developing my sawing skills, but I get things done fairly well with my LN dovetail. I still keep my dozuki hanging by my workbench for about all other bench work though.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

R.J.Whelan

>Derek ... I recently received the Gent style saw from my lovely bride. This new saw joins my Independence (drive-by-gloat/yuppy bastard brag about owning an original IT) as my primary DT tools.

The saw cuts very well and tracks straight - I do not find it hard to start (maybe it would be in very soft material - haven't tried it pine yet).

One point - compared to the traditionally handled saw I find it somewhat uncomfortable to use (during my ten year affair with Japanese saws, in the 80s, I found them uncomfortable to use as well). I spent quite a bit of time sawing DTs for several drawers, recently, and my wrist got very sore - had to switch to the Independence to finish the job.

It is a beautiful saw and looks beautiful hanging next to the IT.

If there's any way you can try a Gent style saw(not necessarily a high dollar one - just something to test the feel of sawing with a bent wrist) before commiting dollars to the LN I think it might be a good idea.

Good luck ... rj

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I seem to be getting pretty good at following my own posts recently...sorry..

I don't want to detract from Ken Greenberg's original posting so I haven't paraphrased, rather I've just cut and pasted from Ken's original post on the porch. Thought this might be helpful.

A good general rule for saw setting is about 5% more than the

thickness of the blade. Of course, there are variations on this theme,

and there's some interpretation as to what it really means. On a

dovetail saw, you are dealing with about .02 inches, so 5% works

out to .001 - somewhat hard to calibrate well. As I recall, my IT saw

was something like .022 thick at the teeth when I measured it once,

more or less as it came from Pete Taran. So that's about .001 on

each side, and the saw works well. Presumably you are planning on

using this in dry hardwoods. Amount of set could be more for other

applications.

Another way to look at it is that you want the minimum amount of set

that will keep the saw from binding. You don't need a big kerf for

making dovetails. That said, a very minimal set would keep you from

correcting the cut if you somehow wandered from the line. A touch

more set makes the saw more steerable. The old timers who

advised against much set were probably quite adept at cutting

dovetails without heading off in the wrong direction. I would advise a

bit more set for beginners or those of us who are out of practice.

And of course you need the same amount on both sides or the saw

will tend to pull to one side, as you have noted.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Derek,

I�ve never used a LN gent�s saw, but I�m currently using a crown gent�s saw which is essentially similar.

Historically, the gent�s saw was a cheap saw for a hobbyist. If you want a cheap saw for a hobbyist, buy the Crown for $15 (its really a partially finished saw kit!). I recommend removing the burr by filing from the burred side. Close your eyes and run your fingers over the teeth. You�ll be able to detect from which side the teeth were stamped. File from the other side. Don�t try to stone that side; You�ll screw up the set.

The problem with the gent�s saw handle is that you can�t push it from behind the teeth. (in the western tradition we push everything- that�s just the way everything is designed) I find its fine for drawers. I saw, then chop, then assemble, then go on to the next drawer. That sequence results in higher quality drawers with less fatigue for me. When I�m making a carcass, especially a wide one, you just have way more pins and tails to cut so that saw is in your hand for most of the morning. That�s when I wish I had a proper dovetail saw.

Here�s my recommendation: Try a proper DT. If it fits your hand and you�ve got the money, buy it. If you haven�t got the money, buy the Crown saw. Only advanatge to a LN gent� saw is the teeth are ready to go as is.

Adam

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Charles

>I own the regular L-N dovetail saw. I also own a Pax gent's saw that I've used for a while. To be honest, the Pax saw starts much more easily than the LN. In fact, I was somewhat disappointed with the L-N. It really skips and chatters. To be honest, the last several sets of dovetails I've done were cut with the Pax saw.

I'm thinking about sending the L-N saw back. An Epiphany it is not.

Don't do it!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>That starting phenomenon you guys are talking about is all about down force (don't do it) and rake angle. High rake angle teeth start easily and cut slower. Low or zero rake angle give guys trouble.

You can easily add rake angle, if you want. But I recommend putting that hard to start saw aside for 6 months and trying it again later. There's a good chance it will work better then!

Adam

LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>RJ

After all the positive comments about the LN gents saw (is this a politically correct term these days?), which indicate it is the way to go, I have been thinking along the same lines, that is, trying out a gents saw before purchasing the LN. I have a very nice John Cockerill (Sheffield) 8" pistol grip dovetail saw (from which, unfortunately, I have removed a tad too much set - Jonathan's earlier post about dovetail saw sets was actually initiated by myself on the Porch). It is a little hard to push, and it is this that makes me a bit leery about a gents saw.

So I am thinking of getting either a Crown or a Pax gents saw to try out. They are quite cheap in Perth (seem to be less than half of what it costs in the US), and about a quarter of the landed cost of the LN (which I will need to import).

Is this sensible, or a waste of money? If sensible, which is the better buy, the Crown or the Pax?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Don't do it!

Charles

>I'm sure you're probably right. I bought the Lie Nielsen to see what all the hoopla was about. I really didn't need it. The Pax saw cut fine out of the box, and still does. I did stone a little bit of the set out of the saw to correct a very, very slight pulling to the left. I could just have easily compensated for it with technique.

Derek...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I think you mis read the LN discription. They have 4 different toothed saws:

Saw No. 1: "A light duty backsaw with a lovely long, turned Curly Maple handle and has a very fine kerf: The Swedish Tool Steel blade is .015", with a .003 inch set on each side. 1/8" x 1/8" Brass back."

Saw No.2 "15-tooth rip for dovetailing"

Saw no.3: "14-point crosscut"

Saw No.4: "an unusual 10-point rip. This style is hard to start, but very fast cutting. Overall length is 17-1/2", blade is 10", and the handle is 7-1/2"."

Above info taken off the LN web site. I think you have some confusion between #2 adn #4. Personally I don't like stright handled western styled saws. Maybe I'm not holding it right, but their rough on my wrists.

Re: LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

Todd Stock

>I have the Pax, and after removing some set, it works OK - no better than some of the less expensive saws I've used, but certainly prettier. For the technique I learned for dovetails, the IT's pistol grip works better (same for LN, Adria, etc).

Todd

Re: Don't do it!

Todd Stock

>The LN/IT starts best by hovering the tool over the work and letting it ghost into the cut. As mentioned, using a thumb to provide some guidance for the first stroke may be of benefit.

Rip saws - the IT, and especially my 28" D-8 - don't seem to like too much pressure at the start.

Re: LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

John Meikrantz

>How do you remove set from an existing sharp saw?

John

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Alan Hamilton

>Derek,

I don't think you can go wrong with either Lie-Nielsen saw. Lie-Nielsen holds what may be the best reputation among hand-tool makers for the quality of their tools. I'm sure both saws are excellent.

IMHO, your decision ought to be governed by whichever style you like best; which you are most comfortable using; which gives you the best results; and so on. Both saws are capable of the very best work (ALERT: you will no longer be able to blame your tools).

BTW, if you want to try out a straight handled saw, I believe you can still find those old Stanley "dovetail saws(uh-huh!) at the hardware store. If you can find one, or one similar, they're dirt cheap and can be tuned--and maybe re-toothed--to do good work, and after you get your good saw you can cut it up for scrapers! I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a trial saw.

Alan

Re: LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

Ted Shuck

>I've removed set from saw blades by placing them flat on an anvil and hitting the sides of the teeth with a hammer. If you want almost no set, this will do the job. If you want to have a little more set, reset the teeth with a sawset. Make sure when you set the teeth that you set them back to the same side that they were originally set or they will break off.

I have heard of people sandwiching the saw blade between two hardwood boards and hammering them to leave some set in the teeth. The teeth embed themselves in the wood slightly so that more set is left than with the anvil method.

Good Luck,

Ted

Re: LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

Michael R

>The best way I know of is to lightly stone the sides of the teeth. It doesn't take much.

Hammering would tend to both distort and fatigue the metal in the teeth..

Re: LN vs Crown vs Pax gent saws

Michael R

>Why don't you just buy a saw set and a file and maintain the saw you have? It's really pretty easy.

Almost any decent back saw will cut just as well as, or better than an LN does out of the box, and after a little use, a freshly sharpened saw will cut better.

A couple of years ago, I took one of my old dovetail saws to a Woodcraft store to compare with an LN, and everybody who compared them both thought the old saw cut better.

To be fair, the LN had been kicking around the store for a little while, and my saw had a fresh touch-up, but the point is, most saws will cut just fine when properly sharpened, and they do have to be sharpened regularly if used regularly. I sure can't afford ot buy a new saw every time the old one gets dull.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Larry Marshall

>Don't want to dissaude you from an LN saw but I thought I'd throw a couple words at your statement about dozukis not holding up to hardwoods.

This is very true but primarily because most of them are designed to cut softwoods. BUT, you can buy dozukis with smaller teeth that are much better in hardwoods. David Charlesworth recommends the Sun Child dozuki, saying that it's THE best for cutting hardwoods. Another that fits this mold is Lee Valley's new 'dovetail dozuki'.

The Sun Child saw is available from the Japanese Woodworker, at least the last time I checked.

I concur with people's statements about the straight saw handles. I always thought my view was because I had a lot of experience using straight handled razor saws in model building, though :-)

Cheers --- Larry

www.woodnbits.com

Cheers --- Larry

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Steve Denvir

>I hate to speak for someone else, but if I understand correctly, Rob Cosman is very reluctant to sell the L-N Gent's saw to someone for cutting dovetails. I think he believes that the handle has the potential to twist in the hand much more than the "proper" dovetail saw does.

Again, a caveat, this is all hearsay, but I think it makes a certain kind of sense.

I have a traditional dovetail saw and love it.

Steve

P. S. And my apologies to Rob if I've misrepresented his views.

Re: LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions pleas

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>I bought the L-N gent's saw and tried to make the most of it. But I found it to be too thin. I returned it and now stay with their Independence Saw which is a real jewel. Just my opinion.