Chisel question from a "newby"

Re: Chisel question from a "newby"

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I've placed several orders from Tools for Working Wood a.k.a Museum of Woodworking Tools Store. The service is excellent. The owner, Joel, is also a regular poster on the hand tool board.

I am going through a similar dilema as you about getting a good set of chisels. I bought a an American pattern Ashley Isles 1/2" chisel (from Joel) and a Hirsch 3/8" (10mm) chisel (from Lee Valley) because I have heard good things about these brands. The size of the American pattern Ashley Isles chisel was a surprise. It is really just a slightly enlarged butt chisel. I like the chisel but for me the larger Hirsch chisel is more comfortable for chopping operations. I still want to try one of the regular beveled edge chisels from Ashley Isles before I make a final decision.

Wendell

Thanks Wendell

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>I appreciate form as well as function. I like the idea of the Bubinga handles along with the quality steel. I may well get different sizes of other brands to try as well. I have much to learn about sharpening and other techniques and will probably frequent this forum more often.

What I use

jim_reed@marietta

>I just cut four dovetails this weekend for interior drawers in a secretary I am building. I used a forstner bit in drill press (gasp!) to hog out waste and then used a Stanley 750 3/8" butt chisel, a Stanley 1 1/2" 750 butt chisel, and two 1/4" nonames I sharpened into a pair of 45 degree skews. Worked for me. Good luck

dovetail chisel

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>for dovetails I prefer a short chisel. I tend to hold the chisel near the bevel for better control, while wacking with other hand (well, mallet in other hand). If the chisel is tall and has a heavy handle my chisel holding hand gets cramps after a bit from trying to control the handle on the long chisel. I wound up making a set of short chisels with light handles just for this operation. The short Japanese chisels and anything looking like a but chisel should work well. the Sorby& Marples are hand crampers, for me.

Sugggestion: go to some of the tools stores and try the chisels in your hands. See what you prefer. For pareing a longer chisel and handle is preferred. (does pareing have an "e" in it?)

Re: dovetail chisel

Dan Donaldson

>I agree with the short chisels for chopping dovetails. I get hand cramps too if the chisel is too long or handle heavy.

ps. paring does not have an "e" (only because you asked ) ;-)

Re: dovetail chisel

Patrick Gibbons

>Considering the controversies of late, I'll state an opinion with the priviso that it is just that, an opinion. Just about all the chisels available to a woodworker today from a reputable source are fine. The steels may need more or less sharpening according to usage, brand, bevel angles, woods, the dark of the moon, the alcohol level of the workmen, etc., etc. How it fits and feels in your hand is a very important factor. What you're willing to pay is important. Other factors to consider revolve around how much fettling you're willing to do. I have five or six brands of chisels I've bought over the years. Some I have to sharpen more than others. I find that the way a chisel feels in my hand is the single most important factor for me with other considerations coming in second. Marples blue chips feel good in my hand but need sharpening much more often. I have some old Fuller butt chisels that feel great in my hand but the blades are too short for me to hold and pare with and the steel is exceptionally soft (meaning not tough). The Crown rosewood-handled butts are too short and have too small a handle. My Sorby registered mortise chisels have great handles for my hands. The sizes 1/2 inch and less are my go-to mortise chisels. My latest chisels are the Ashley Isles bubinga-handled regular bench chisels. I love them. They feel great in the hand, hold an edge better than anything else I own and didn't break the bank to buy. While I haven't used one, I have held one of the new Lie-Nielsen chisels in my hand and they feel great. The fit and finish seemed terrific. I've heard nothing bad about their edge-holding abilities. Go try some chisels at the stores, buy a few different brands if you want to try them out (obviously only one size of each to get a feel for the tool), and get the best you can afford. You only regret buying good tools once. Bad tools you regret buying every time you use them.

This is where

Dan Donaldson

>You can really see the importance of trying some for yourself. Here is what I mean: For Patrick, the Marples have a good feel, for me, on dovetails, they cramp my hands. The Crown are too short and small for him, but are just what I want for chopping DT's. I haven't held many of the others, so I cannot comment, but this is another area where it is important to find out what works for you. Within limits, I agree that feel is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if it holds an edge forever if it makes my hands hurt, or is difficult to hold or use. I tend to prefer chisels with smaller handles because they fit my hands better, but that is probably only because I have small hands. For you, or someone else, it may be totally different.

Re: This is where

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>I have big hands, but I still prefer a small, short, light handle, and short blade for chopping dovetails, because they are easier to lift and control, and I don't have to lift the mallet as high. I really dislike the shape of the Marples blue chip handles, because the mallet never seems to connect at just the right spot. The end of the handle is also too sharp to be comfortable for pushing with the palm of the hand for paring.

Re: Chisel question from a "newby"

Todd Stock

>If you are anywhere near Highland Hardware in Atlanta (close to Buckhead, I recall...been a while), catch them on a slow day and see if they will let you play.

Although the temptation is to blow a wad on high-end chisels, everyone needs a cheap, easily sharpened set for rough work in softwoods or nail-infested restorations. Good way to learn how to tune and sharpen edge tools without worrying whether your $40 Sorby, LN, etc. will eve recover from your ministrations.

Marples Blue Chip Handles

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>FWI, FWIW, Frank Klausz used Marples Blue Chips in his hand tool fettling video. IIRC, he took a file to the top of the handle, and made a flat spot.

Re: Chisel question from a "newby"

Thomas Williams Columbus, Ohio

>I recently bought a set of the Ashley Iles bevel edge chisels from Joel. Service is excellent and Joel is a very pleasant and interesting person to talk to. I hope to be a regular customer.

As to the chisels, I am very pleased with mine. The handles are very comfortable for me and the larger size is nice for those of us who have a bit of arthritis in our hands. A quick honing and mine were ready for use. I would buy them again.

I have a few old Stanley socket chisels, Blue handled Marples (not bad for $20 for 4) and some Pfiel chisels. I like the heft and feel of the Ashley Iles. Not sure I can bring myself to whack the bubinga with a mallet, at least not for now.

Re: Chisel question from a "newby"

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi John,

Welcome.

Choosing a chisel for the purpose you describe should be cut and dry. The technique used to make dovetails is pretty much standardized with the notable exception that some cope out the waste.

You should be looking for a good hard chisel. You shouldn�t have to stop to sharpen in the middle of a job. When you work with wide boards, you want to plane and join in one day. Depending on the project, the wood, and your technique, you may not be able to accomplish this with Marples Blue Chip chisels. The only upside is that soft chisels are easy and fast to sharpen.

For normal cabinet furniture, you need 1/4�, 3/8�, 1/2�, 5/8�, 3/4� If memory serves these are the sizes LN wisely chose to produce first.

I�ve never considered for a moment the way a chisel feels while malleting. I read with great curiousity the others discuss this as an important feature. While my knee jerk is to suggest this is a red herring, my respect for these other fine woodworkers tells me there�s something to it. I bet if I looked into it, I�d find all of my chisels are bottom heavy tanged chisels with great balance. I get hand cramps from using my gent�s saw, but never from my chisels. I think you should seriously consider their advice and try before you buy.

Otherwise, I recommend handles with a wide flat butt end. Don�t pay any attention to Garret Hack�s FWW bench chisel article. You don�t ever hold a chisel like a tennis raquet. You hold it like a pencil, and push the back end with your palm as William has written. This is sometimes referred to as the �English Method� by carvers, but its the same for cabinetmakers. Remember: unless you plan to cope the waste, you chop (my rule is never more than three hits) then pare, chop, then pare. So the handle must be good for both.

In my experience, the beveled sides represent no advantage. Bevels just weaken the edge. I use square sided chisels and experience no problems with them. When you think about it, all chisels except some japanese models have square sides. Beveled chisels sides are lower than mine. You can never size your dovetail exactly to the width of your chisel. It has to be a little bit bigger.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is buy steel from a good manufacturer like two cherries, Hirsch, Ashley Iles, and make new handles if need be. I always say Sorby's are too soft, but if you really like the handles, go for it. Making handles can be a PITA. Re-hardening might be easier! I guess I'm just trying to say not to compromise too much for a handle, and don't shy away from a good chisel because you don't like the handle. Okay?

If you work in English units, I think there is an advantage to buying chisels sized in English units.

I really like Highland hardware and Joel's company (tools for working wood). I've had great experience with both. Don't forget LV. You may find just what you're looking for there.

Good luck,

Adam

thanks everyone...

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>...I did some archival research since first posting and found out I may have a gem in the rough. I have a 60+ year old Buck Bros. beveled edge chisel slightly over 13/16" wide and still 7" of length left. Only slight pitting on the back. I had never thought to really tune it but some archive posts say the older Bucks have good steel so maybe I'll try my hand at it. Will be good practice for when I get some top quality iron later. I figure the quality stones I'll need will break the budget for awhile anyhow.

Re: Bevel questions for Adam, et.al.

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>With chisels that have straight sides, how do you keep the sides of the chisel from beating up the sides of the tails when you are chopping the space between them? (This is not a problem with chopping between pins, of course.) How can I improve my chopping technique, so I can get away with this? Maybe my tails are at too steep an angle (1:6 or about 10�), or maybe my saw kerf is too narrow? Or do I need to approach the paring of the inside corner at an angle? I usually use a heavy marking knife for final trimming, but I'd appreciate being able to gain some efficiency by not having to swap tools in the middle of a paring operation.

I agree, the end of the Blue Chip handle is just as inept for paring as it is for whacking with a chisel. It's too sharp to push with the palm, so you have to tighten you grip to compensate. And there's too much weight way back in the handle. I've always been afraid to take a rasp to the end of one, for fear of running into the end of the tang about a quarter inch in. Does anyone know how long the tangs are on these?

Answers and another question?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi William,

With chisels that have straight sides, how do you keep the sides of the chisel from beating up the sides of the tails when you are chopping the space between them?

No trick. The chisel is narrower than the waste to be chopped. You may get through the waste only to find a little material in those corners. Then just as you thought, you sneak in there at an angle and clean it out.

Listen, I thought with my little engineer's brain that this would be a problem. The only reason I tried it is that I knew 18th century masters had chisels with square sides. I decided to try it first and figure it out later. It was a non-issue. No problem. Bevel chisels might be nice for other things, but so far I haven't felt disadvantaged by my square sided firmers. That said, some of my chisels are pretty thin.

Maybe my tails are at too steep an angle (1:6 or about 10�), or maybe my saw kerf is too narrow?

This all sounds fine to me.

I usually use a heavy marking knife for final trimming, but I'd appreciate being able to gain some efficiency by not having to swap tools in the middle of a paring operation.

I try like heck to shoot for winners and not pare at all. I'm finding that to some extent, its a self fulfilling phrophecy. Say you'll do it, do it, then be happy with what you've got!

I agree, the end of the Blue Chip handle is just as inept for paring as it is for whacking with a chisel. It's too sharp to push with the palm, so you have to tighten you grip to compensate.

Here's a losing strategy. That's what I was talking about with Garret Hack. I can think of no tool that requires a tight grip to function. Your fingers should be lose on every tool. That's what I don't like about my gent's saw.

I've always been afraid to take a rasp to the end of one, for fear of running into the end of the tang about a quarter inch in. Does anyone know how long the tangs are on these?

What about (dramatic music please) a stationary belt sander?

Has anybody removed the handles from their Hirsch/2 cherries/Kirschen chisels? What does that tang look like? I think there's a little mini socket there too, no?

Adam

Re: Bevel questions for Adam, et.al.

Dan Donaldson

>Cannot talk to the edge question, but I have cut the end off from a Marples blue handled chisel (1/2"). There is a hole through the handle that starts about 1" or so from the end, but the tang only extends into the handle about 1 1/2" from the point where the socket and the handle join. I did not bother filling the hole. I cut it off with an old handsaw and smoothed the end by hitting it with a propane torch to melt the plastic.

Re: Chisel question from a "newby"

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>What brand of square side chisel do you use? I haven't seen to many offerings from modern makers other than Two Cherries.

Wendell

Beveled Chisels and Gent's Saws

Steve Reynolds

>With chisels that have straight sides, how do you keep the sides of the chisel from beating up the sides of the tails when you are chopping the space between them?

No trick. The chisel is narrower than the waste to be chopped. You may get through the waste only to find a little material in those corners. Then just as you thought, you sneak in there at an angle and clean it out.

Listen, I thought with my little engineer's brain that this would be a problem. The only reason I tried it is that I knew 18th century masters had chisels with square sides. I decided to try it first and figure it out later. It was a non-issue. No problem. Bevel chisels might be nice for other things, but so far I haven't felt disadvantaged by my square sided firmers. That said, some of my chisels are pretty thin.

My work practices are probably not a good example, but are similar to Adam’s. I tend to use the chisels that are out on the bench at the time (usually the sharp ones). I don’t even bother to check if they are beveled or not, only to see if the width is about right. If they are of a firmer pattern (non-beveled), I tend to start on the outside face of the board and go down only as far as the length of the bevel of the chisel. This way, the sides of the chisel don’t have a chance to bruise the tails. Now flip the board over and remove the remaining waste. My experience is that any bruising is minor and only noticeable if you are looking for it. I know a lot of dovetailers like to exactly match a chisel to the baseline of the tail/pin, but I find no need to do this. Conversely, it is convenient to have a somewhat smaller chisel that allows you to come back at an angle.

I sometimes sense that some people want chisels of a precise width, and that width must be consistent from edge to handle. I’m confused why this is so. Going back to Adam’s reference to the 18th century masters, their chisels not only weren’t beveled, they tapered quite a bit from edge to handle. I guess I can see that different tools of consistent size are handy for smooth joint making (especially mortise and tenon). But sometimes an odd sized tool is a an advantage, and the tapered sides allow for some pleasant wiggle room.

That's what I was talking about with Garret Hack. I can think of no tool that requires a tight grip to function. Your fingers should be lose on every tool. That's what I don't like about my gent's saw.

Oddly, that is what I like about the straight handled dovetail saws. I find that with a very lose grip which doesn’t permit your hand to twist the saw along its axis you tend not to correct the path of the saw cut, or wander off by accident. This makes it important to line the saw up correctly before commencing the cut, but if you get it right it proceeds without wandering. Mind you I love my IT dovetail saw and find no problem with it either. That’s the great thing, two kinds of saws to acquire and enjoy.

Regarding the straight handled dovetail saws, are they all known as Gent’s saws, or only the shorter, say 8”, size? I’ve seen Frank Klaus and Gene Landon using 12” ones and the term Gent’s saw doesn’t seem appropriate, although both of them are fine gentlemen.

Re: Beveled Chisels and Gent's Saws

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>"I tend to use the chisels that are out on the bench at the time"

Hmmm...I'm thinking you must have done poor old Tom P. in to be scoring all these chisels to be left scattered all about. BTW where is that mint in-cannal gouge? I'm thinking that there were two....right?

...dramatic music please...

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Well, I don't have a belt sander (I really dislike them, and always seem to end up with a worse mess than when I started.) But I do have a 4" angle grinder. That should do the trick.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Re: Answers and another question?

paul womack

>The only reason I tried it is that I knew 18th century masters had chisels with square sides.

Yep - by the time the 19th century masters were creating those oh-so-sought-after "London" dovetails, they had the required fine quality bevel edged chisels.

BugBear