Steel or Brass sides....

Brass!

Paul M. in San Diego

>I'm saving up for the brass one. What's the point of making all those nifty dovies if you can't show them off?

Re: Brass!

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>It's kind of fascinating, though, how they vanish with steel.

Best, Ted

Re: Steel or Brass sides....

R.J. "Sam" Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Scott, I can certainly see the added attraction of brass sides. The contrast is eye catching. But I found in my first kit experience, that there needs to be an understanding of the forces applied when the peining the dovetails. In other words, when spreading metal to fill a gap, the adjacent metal part must offer just the right resistance in order to form a good joint. It is not at all difficult to learn how to get it right when the two metals are the same. but I think the dynamics will be quite different when one of the metals is softer than the other. I'm sure this is something that is also quickly learned. But I believe it would be advantageous to use steel on both sides of the dovetail for your first attempt.

I would be very interested to hear Ben's opinions on this point.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Steel or Brass sides....

Cameron

>Brass is more "crumbly" but that's about it. The dovetails are already machined on the plates, yes? If so the tolerances should be fine and you won't have to "push" the material too far to make it lock so brittleness of the brass shouldn't be an issue as such. Just take things slowly and you should be OK.

As far as wearability is concerned the plane should last a few lifetimes or so. How many hundred years did you plan on using it? :-)

Not Quite

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Cameron, it's not quite that easy. The dovetails are machined onto the blanks, but they are not able to slip past one-another. So some filing is needed to relieve just enough to allow for that. Then the metal needs to be hammered back to fill the voids created by that process. My concerns are understanding the mailability of the different metals. The need to hammer hard on the steel but not distort the brass, and the need to lighten up a little on the brass, so as not the totally fill the void with brass and not enough steel. That would create a one sided dovetail. Like I said, I'm sure it is easily learned. But a little practice with steel against steel would seem prudent. The area around the mouth is particularly susceptible to distortion. I wonder if the softer brass sides actually help with construction in that area? Ben?

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Not Quite

Cameron

>I just checked out the kits at their website. Yes, there's a little bit of filing at the start and the dovetails do need a little "relieving", but it's not a big deal to do that.

You only need light hits with the hammer to lock them in place - lots of light hits I should add! Every now and then you'll "miss-hit" the dovetails, so you'll appreciate the lighter hits. Less damage to clean up later.

Re: Steel or Brass sides....

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>I have to agree on Sam on this one on two counts, first I'd like to hear Ben's opinion since he has much more experience that I have. I've made 3 infill planes using mild steel for the shells and none using brass for the sides. I have peined brass rod to hold wooden handles on plane making floats several times and in my experience brass does not move as easily when peining as steel does. As Cameron said, it work hardens and gets brittle so it is a little harder to move into any gaps.

Jim Crammond

Re: Steel or Brass sides....

Cameron

>Actually it's a moot point as it's going to be the steel sole that's "worked" onto the brass sides anyway.

The brass dovetail is pretty much complete and it's just the steel soled "locking" dovetail that needs to be piened harder to fill (lock in) the sides.

Apart from that there's just the rods to contend with. Don't have your countersinks too big and it shouldn't be a problem. If you do happen to screw one of them up just get some more brass rod from a hardware store to replace it.

Re: Steel or Brass sides....

Ben Knebel

>Hi Folks;

Just got back form teaching a class on plane building at Conover's so haven't seen this thread till now.

Brass is interesting to work with and has both disadvantages and advantages and sometimes the properties of the brass are both at the same time.

Firstly we use a soft very malleable brass that does not work harden and embrittle easily---people that have experienced embrittlement with brass have probably been using what is known as half-hard brass.

It is the softness of the brass that we use that is both good and bad.

It works and piens very easily and Sam's point is well taken--it responds to piening differently than the steel--it deforms easily and so the hammer blows do have to be lighter when hitting the brass than when hitting the steel---misses will also go deeper into the brass than the steel so you may end up with more to clean up after piening.

But that is also the advantage--it does pien and deform easily so the "fill and flow" is easier to achieve.

Also if there is any distrotion between brass sidewalls and the wood infill the brass will conform to the wood---in other words you can correct mistakes more easily than you can with steel using a pin punch to move small portions of brass to where you want them to be--doable in the steel but more difficult.

Now the other side--the very properties that make it work easily can be your enemy.

If the hammer blows are too hard you can end up driving the brass dovetail below the level of the steel--i.e.--you can force the brass to flow past the steel and leave a depression that is difficult to remove--but then again the pin punch trick can be used to force it back the other way but if you do this too many times you can end up with a badly deformed sidewall that will be difficult to correct.

As to the rivets used--we use brass on some of the steel sided planes--for contrast and interest. This is true on the chariots and bullnoses and shoulders if the customers want them---we've even had folks that used brass pins on the smoothers and jointers because they like the look.

On the brass sided plane we use steel rivets for the contrast and it looks good with the contrast of the steel in the sole of the plane.

Personally I like working with the brass and I've heard from some customers that have built both steel and brass versions of our planes that they prefered working with the brass as well.

From a user perspective--in a completed plane --the only real difference is the look and a bit of a weight differential--the brass is a little heavier than the steel.

Regards

Ben

Wow, Thanks all

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Very interesting comments for and against brass. I like the contrasting look of the brass and extra weight is for the most part better for me. Still the brass is more $$. I can get more planes for my buck by going with steel. Oh what a dilemma.

As far as wear goes Cameron, didn't you know my middle name is Methuselah. ;)

Thanks All, Scott