Eye problem solution needed

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Jim

Sorry to hear this.

To deal with the error of parallax that occurs with crossing laterality (and I have a feeling that this occurs more commonly than many realise - I'm a clinical psychologist by day and do a lot of neuropsych work), I think that you are going to have to learn to set up your initial marking very clearly, in a way that reduces possible errors. In other words, learn to mark out your lines left handed, scoring them with a blade more deeply than usual. This will give you a better guide to follow when you switch to cutting right handed.

I'd be interested to know who else has this problem, and what you have done to overcome/compensate for it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Bob Hackett

>When coaching during rifle marksmanship we often come across right handed shooters who are left eye dominant.The first thing we try to do is to encourage them to become lefthanded shooters.This allows them to aquire targets with both eyes open and then engage those targets using the dominant eye.If things are just too difficult for them as lefthanded firers we tape or otherwise block the view of the dominant eye and they qualify with one eye.

I`m sorry to say that if you only have sight in one eye,it would seem your only real option would be to cut with the saw held in the left hand.I don`t recommend this lightly as I am recovering from an injury that has forced me to use my left hand far more than I did before the injury.The silver lining is that it will get easier and you`ll find being ambidexterous a real help for alot of everyday things.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>I am wondering if it would help to get both hands on the saw. There seem to be two different issues here--parallax error and the cross-lateral problem. Seems like two hands on the saw would help with both. This is a fairly natural thing to do with a rip dozuki.

Wiley

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I understand you saying that using your left hand is not an option, but is that because you consider yourself strongly right handed, or because there is something the matter with your left hand or arm? Few folks are exclusively right or left hand dominant to such an extent that they cannot learn to use their nondominant hand for tool use. There are indeed a few who can't, but is is truly only a small percent.

Woodturners are a good example of how many right hand dominant people become very proficient using gouges and skews ambidextrously. I can't see any reason why saw use would be remarkably different. I know I am more ambidextrous than most, but I often switch from one hand to the other when sawing (and always do when planing).

Frustrating as it might initially be, I'd suggest practicing sawing with your left hand, or using both hands with a dozuki as Wiley suggests. The odds are that you will find you will gain considerable proficiency with sustained practice. I see this happen all the time with brain damaged folks who don't have a choice. I think if you can be successful with this, in the end, it will result in the most comfortable tool use in the long run.

If you are prevented from using your left hand/arm for other reasons (or indeed, if you are just one of those who are severely unilaterally dominant), then I wonder if you might not benefit from one of the inexpensive dovetail guides such as Lee Valley sells. You could fit the guide in place while being able to see it from multiple perspectives, and use tactile feedback from the device to guide your cuts instead of vision.

Most know my research interests and what I do for a living, so I won't go into it here, but if you want to follow up on this now or later, you are welcome to email me and I'm willing to see what we can do to fine tune some long term strategies.

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Quite a generous offer Lyn. You should be commended.JR

Re: Eye problem solution needed

R.J.Whelan

>Jim ... when I first read your post I became curious about the dynamics: I went to the shop and put an eye patch on my right eye and tried a couple of DT's - you're right, it's difficult.

I have a couple of aids I've used for years:

1. A horizontal line on the wall behind the front vise I use when cutting DT's (a simple piece of blue "painter's tape" - this line helps me keep the saw vertical at the start of the cut

2. A vertical line intersecting the above described horizontal line - this line aids in setting up the piece in the vise without having to resort to squares and bevel guages

3. A small mirror placed in the bench behind the board being cut - this allows you to see the back of the cut without having to stop and go into contortions to see if you're on the line.

With the eye patch in place these three devices helped with staying on the line but I still had to concentrate, on staying on the line, more than usual. I only cut half a dozen DT's, but the sixth one seemed to go easier than the first. Maybe, with practice, it would become more automatic.

I don't know if any of this will help but I do wish you good luck in the search for a solution.

rj

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I haven't been on this forum very long but there are some good idea's there and I thank you for them. The eye problem is a birth defect and my left hand does work but fine motor skills are laking and I have a tear in the tendon and it hurts but I don't seem to be able to make the saw flow it's more of herky jerky motion. Lyn I am not sure what you do but I'll look thru the archives. Maybe the toughts about putting some serious pratice into left handed sawing with the aid of markings. I am sure there must be other people ie had a stroke or similar birth defects or workplace injuries.

Some background on me here:...  *LINK*

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>


http://cognimetrix.com/

Re: Some background on me here:...

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Thanks Lyn I will e-mail you.

Suggestions from an idoit in the peanut gallery.

Basil...S.C. countryside

>I've never cut a dovetail by hand or with a machine for that matter but your situation intrigues me.

Seems to me following the lines might be easier on one side than the other side for you. I shut one eye and tried to saw and it seemed that way for me. So, lay out one or the other first (pins or tails). Saw inside the line on the easiest side for you and OUTSIDE the line on the other side. Now use that piece to layoff the (pins or tails) on the mating piece. If you want your D/T's perfectly centered you'll need to allow for the saw kerf one way or the other on the first piece.

Now you got to saw inside the marks on the last piece. I'd do the easy side first. On the difficult side maybe stay well inside your mark and dress it up with a sharp chisel or take extreme care with it while sawing.

Another dumb suggestion, if you already haven't tried this, lean your board to a comfortable angle in the vice for your eyesight. The one time I've seen D/T's cut by hand, they had the board straight up and down in the vice. Maybe lean it 15 or 20 degress or more to the left and then to the right until you can comfortably see the lines and still make the cut with your right hand. It might look awkward to someone else or it might not be the way the masters do it in the book but maybe it's the easiest way for you to do it.

I've known 2 one eyed carpenters in my lifetime. They both had lost one eye completely. They sometimes did things a little differently and it seemed awkward to me. But it was the way they had learned to do it to compensate for the loss of their eye.

Basil

Re: Suggestions from an idoit in the peanut galler

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Basil I think you opened your eye and cheated. Put a patch on your right eye if your right handed and have a go at it. Seriously I would love to find a one eyed carpenter or cabinet maker because I think they might have the answer. When you have sight in one eye your depth percetion is way off your sense of level is way off. But by far the worst thing is I can't see the line to the right of the blade and cut at the same time. To achieve a sawcut to sawcut dovetail joint you need a repeatable effient system. To this day most things that are tossed to me hit the floor and still I can play golf with a low handicap? The only reason I think that's possible is due to pratice and some help along the way. Who knows but maybe a different layout tool and some pratice with my left hand?

Lyn, I have sent an email to your work address.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>

I did.

Basil...S.C. countryside

>I did close one eye and not cheat. Going from 2 eyes to one, I probably had more trouble than you do. That's why I suggested making 3 of your cuts with the marks on the left side of the saw blade.

I've also been daydreaming about some kind of saw guide to clamp up in the vice along with your board.

One idea was for a saw guide made of wood much like the old one piece clip-on wooden clothes pins. You would clamp it to your board and the saw would ride in the slot.

How much of a handcut D/T purest are you? The below might be to mechanical if you're real pure. (as for me, my woodworking soul is as black as the cords to my electrical tools except for one little teeny white spot)

Another idea I had for a jig, rig or guide is to buy an old hand mitre saw (The metal kind with a bed, back and saw suspened in guides). Junk it for parts and the saw. Make yourself a clamp and "jaw" inserts to use with it possible on another table or bench. You could rig the saw to only make vetical, perpendicular cuts in refference to the board. In other words it would only make one kind of cut, striaght ahead and straight down. Then by using 2 (or more for various degrees) sets of changeable jaws in your clamp you could make your D/T's cuts.

For tails, your insert jaws would lean the board to say the right at 15 deg. (whatever deg you want) Turn the jaws and board around to cut the other side (leaning to the left). For pins, the board would be held straight up but the jaws would be wedge shaped at 15 deg. (or whatever) and this would put your sawblade at 15 deg. to the board. You could either eyeball saw to a depth mark or clamp your board so that when the saw bottomed out in the guides you would be at the desired depth.

Basil

Re: miter box saws

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Good ideas, Basil. However, the problem with your standard run-of-the-mill miter box saw is that it is optimized for cross-cutting and for mitered moldings, not dainty dovetails. These saws are usually massive, and cut aggresively. For example, mine has a 7" depth of cut, deeper than my RAS or my Unisaw. The problem is getting it to stop precisely at the bottom if you are cutting a ³/₄" x ³/₄" or smaller kerf. They don't deliver much tactile feedback.

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Jim

I can support Lyn's recommendation of a jig, particularly the Veritas dovetail jig. I have used one and it makes for accurate cutting. The point is that it will enable you to align two points (the line you cut and the edge of the jig) precisely because you can do it BY FEEL (in the same way that you mark a dimension with the point of a knife, then slide your rule up against it to mark the complete line).

Your initial strategy should be to mark accurately, and it will best be done left handed. You can still work right handed, I believe, but as long as you learn to align your cuts. The emphasis here is getting as close up to the mark as possible, since errors of parallax will be less. This means that guide lines on a wall will not help (probably make life more difficult).

The acts of planing and chiselling are also less likely to be the issue, since you can do these double handed. It is the accuracy of paring to a line that is your challenge. As I menttioned before, I think you need to scribe your lines as deeply as possible. Also use jigs like a mitre jack when paring angles.

I hope some of this is of help.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Eye problem solution needed

L. Hanson, N. Idaho

>Sorry for the length -

I'm not a regular poster here, but I've been following this thread with some interest as I am functionally blind in my right eye and am right handed. I've never found it to be any kind of a handicap - and any adjustments I make while cutting dovetails are completely subconscious to me. After reading this post, I was cutting some dovetails and made some notes on what I do to compensate.

First - while I fire a rifle left handed, and it seems completely natural to me, sawing left handed would be an exercise in futility, and a waste of time. I don't have fine enough motor skills in my left hand to guide a saw down a straight line, at least not without a great deal of practice - it would be like learning all over again.

For dovetails, I always mark both sides. I had thought it was just to be more accurate, but it could be that I do it that way to compensate. I have no difficulty sawing to the line if the line is on the left of the saw, obviously. If its on the right, I either bend over the saw, or re-position the piece so I am cutting at an angle that I can see the line something on the order of 45 degrees or so. I might even work parallel to the end of the piece rather than perpendicular to it while it's clamped at such an angle (if you can picture that) - but usually I just adjust my posture. My bench is low enough that I can have the piece clamped in a vice low enough to do so. I've also gotten quite used to working a saw at many different angles with at least some degree of accuracy.

If I am truly striving for accuracy, I may decide to cut short of the line, and pare it to final fit with chisels. But the same problems happen with chisels as with saws - so the same basic practices above hold for sawing true for me for working with chisels.

Whatever method you choose to do dovetails, the only real thing I have ever found that will improve them is practice. Practice, practice, practise. The more you do, the better you will get. I'm sorry, but I don't know of any cut and dried 'solution' other than that, so I'm not sure if I've been much help - just thought I would relay my experiences for your info.

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Thanks Derek the problem is there is no useable sight in my right eye so no matter how clear the line is marked cutting with your right hand any trying to look down the line is tough. I have talked to Lyn and spent a couple of hours puttering around trying to cut with my left hand and I will post with some photo's of things that help and hopefully a solution. Thanks Jim

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Alan Hamilton

>Jim,

I am in much the same situation--except I still have some vision in both eyes. Specificaly, I can't see much detail with my right eye, everything is blurry; my left eye is better, but not by much. I cannot see well enough to read, drive, or do much else.

Surprisingly (to me at least) I have had few of the difficulties you are experiencing. I suspect that is because I could sort of cut dovetails before my vision went south (I make no claims whatever about the quality of my dovetails). But now I must do things a little differently to compensate.

One major thing I do is to use magnifiers. Though from your description of your vision, magnifyers would not help you.

I continue to make all my marks with a knife, but now I use a pencil to get a dark line that I can see with all my magnifiers in place.

Also I now saw by feel. I score very deep lines across the top edge. That way my saw registers in exactly the right place. I turn the stock in the vise so the line I want to cut is straight up and down. Even with my limited vision I can still see pretty well when the saw is straight. I also use my left hand to feel the saw as it cuts. Between keeping the layout line vertical and feeling the side of the saw, I can still keep the cuts pretty much where they belong.

I know your sight problems are different than mine, so my compensating methods may not help. But perhaps they can help, or perhaps they may suggest to you other things that will help.

Alan

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Alan That has a few clues to the puzzle. Cutting a deep line to get the saw started on the right track and tilting the board. I have tried tilting the board without the slot for the saw to go into. Going to try that out. Cutting by feel interests me can I learn this? Hope so. Thanks Jim

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I knew there was someone else out there. Thank you for taking the time to examine what you do naturally. Trying to break down and examine exactly how you do something is conserably harder than most people realize. I am going to take pictures and keep track of trials and error's hopefully something is going to work. Thanks Jim

Re: Eye problem solution needed

L. Hanson in N. Idaho

>It is hard to explain to someone something you do that seems to come fairly naturally - it's even harder to try and discern what you're doing differently than others because of something like this, especially if there's no one next to you to compare it to... so, in that vein:

Something I forgot to mention, and I don't know if everybody does it or just me - but I put my left hand on the piece being cut and guide the saw by pushing it against my left thumb and index finger, with the rest grasping the drawer side. I do this pretty much through the entire cut.

I don't know if that is something I do because of the blind eye, just out of habit, or if its something everyone does. I honestly couldn't tell you where I picked up that habit. Might be something taught to me by my dad - but it's been a few years, I was just a kid when he was showed how to cut dovetails.

Just thought I'd mention it - us Popeye types with the squinty eye has gots ta stick together.

Re: Eye problem solution needed

Alan Hamilton

>Jim,

There's no reason I can think of that you--or anyone--couldn't learn to saw by feel. When I first tried to cut dovetails after my vision problems began I tried lots of different things--most were of no use whatever. Eventually, by the process of elimination, I found the things that work for me.

One thing I would mention is that I learned to feel my way along by continuously checking what I was doing. I still stop every few strokes and check my work. That way I have feed back on what I am doing: if I'm drifting one way or the other I can make adjustments. Other than that I would say only to keep sawing; you'll develop your own ways of doing things.

Keep pitching,

Alan