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Flattening Yet Again

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Flattening Yet Again

#1

Flattening Yet Again

Sanford Levy

>Another question from a confused newbie. The more I read about flattening the backs of chisels and planes, the more uncertain I become. I have been using the scary sharp method for sharpening and have used the same method for flattening the backs. But it takes forever. I am considering two options. First, I have not tried alumina zirconium with the scary method. I notice that Klingspor has it in reasonable widths and am considering that. The finest grit they carry is 80. I assume I would use it for basic flattening and then move to other papers. Second, I see lots of people like lapping. I see from other posts that Hartville and Japan woodworker have inexpensive lapping plates. And from the posts from Russell Seaton I see a good source for silicon carbide powder with Kinglsey North. I know other options exist, e.g., that some people like diamond stones, but I see lots of complaints about their not being flat and wearing out too fast. Am I right that both my previously stated options are reasonable? Is it really just a flip of the coin? Or is one way off? The question is becoming pressing for me since I have begun to buy hand tools on ebay and want to get better at caring for them. Thanks! Sanford

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#2

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Flattening Yet Again *LINK*

Jim in Burlington

>Yes it does take forever but you only need to do it once and really only the last 1/4" or so. A nice piece of glass or a marble tile 12" x12" and some grinding powder is a good start. You can buy from Lee Valley up to 600 grit. The link to LV for the micro abrasive paper will finish your sharpening off with a mirror finish. If you don't have a magnifing glass buy one of the jewlers loops also. It takes about 3 hours to do a A2 plane blade.


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=33004&category=1,43072&ccurrency=2&SID=

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#3

Re: Flattening Yet Again

Roy: Vista CA

>I use the regular black wet dry sandpaper. It's the fastest way I have found to sharpen what ever I am sharpening. (with the exception of turning tools) I was stationed in Japan and I bought all of the waterstones. I have them still in the shrink wrap. I don't use them. I use sandpaper. You only have to flatten the backs to a mirror polish once and then you are done unless it rusts. I challenged my instructor at Palomar College to see who could sharpen a chisel faster. I brought and old beater in from the swap meet and he used one of his marples. I was done with the entire process before he had his back lapped flat on his Shapton stones. I want to work wood not sharpen. I am all about getting there as fast as I can. I have used everything I could think of. I find sandpaper to be the most economical and the fastest. You need to find what works for you. I would not trade my high speed grinder and sandpaper for a tormeck or all the Shapton stones there are. You spend to much time on upkeep on the tools that are supposed to be up-keeping your tools. There are to many whiz bang do it all tools out there. Just learn what works for you and do that. I put the picture here just so you can see that I have a lot of sharpening to do!

Just my opinion.


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Re: Flattening Yet Again

#4

Re: Flattening Yet Again

Will in K.C.

>Roy, could you quickly explain the sandpaper system you use? I would be interested to know your favorite brand, the grits, and the steps you use.

-Will

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#5

Another Method *LINK*

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Lyn seems to have zeroed in on an efficient and fast method:


Lyn's Blade Back Flattening Notes

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#6

Re: Flattening Yet Again (long)

Roy: Vista CA

>The method I use is the scary sharp method. I get my glass at the Goodwill or Salvation Army. They always seem to have extra shelf glass laying around or an extra glass table top or two. Cutting up those thick table tops is fun and quite scary too. I glue two sheets of 100 grit wet/dry sand paper to the glass with spray adhesive. Don�t use double sided tape, it will cause ridges. All of the grits to follow are simply laid on the 100 grit and they stay pretty good for the most part. Once you get the back flat and the bevel correct on the blade the finer grits go fast , you are only removing scratches to the next grit. I go all the way to 2000 grit. The work out is at the 100 grit stage. Getting the bevel and the back flat. I use it dry and I find the cheapo eclipse jig to be the most efficient jig to use since it squares the blade automatically. I have the Veritas jig as well but I don�t use it very often , I find that the blades slip to easy in it and getting them square in the jig is a hassle.

As far as brands of sandpaper, I go for what�s cheap on Ebay. The last 2000 grit I got was 3M on Ebay, 50 sheets for $6.99. Shipping is shipping you have to pay that anywhere you get it from. I have cut up belts for sanders and used them as well. The blue 3M ones really eat steel fast. I am not brand loyal. I have spent a lot of money on other means of sharpening and they like my Incra Jig are collecting dust in the shop. Add up the price you would pay for all of the stones of what ever type you may desire or feel you need and then compare it to sandpaper. I don�t have to flatten my sandpaper either.

I attend college at Palomar and I see what abuse these tools will stand up to Students are hard on tools. They have all the systems you could hope to want there. Only one requires no maintenance and it�s a simple sheet of glass.

I tune my planes with this method as well. Imagine the cost of a stone that is 8 �� X 22� that stays flat. Now imagine trying to flatten a plane sole larger then a block plane on a stone you can afford. For me it�s just to cost effective to use sandpaper.

I will close by saying fault can be found in any system. Supposed new ways of sharpening are coming out in every catalog you pick up. There are a lot of $400.00 machines out there that promise the world. They all have their faults and no one system is perfect for every tool, just like one tool won�t do every job. My grandfather and my Dad both cut dovetails with a hack saw. If it works for you then do it.

Sharp is Sharp no matter how you get there!

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#7

Re: Flattening Yet Again (long) 

Roy: Vista CA

>


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#8

did 35 last night

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>From our previous posts most of you know that we made a bunch of tools from a highly abrasion resistant steel, CPM3V. We recently accumulated an assortment of chisels and plane irons for a marathon flattening session, which was the successful culmination of many failed efforts. Here is what we have learned....

1.We don't believe that it is possible to flatten steel with abrasive sheets, or anything else that has any "give" to it. The steel edge leading the sanding stroke always abrades faster than the trailing metal. All will look fine until near the end and then at the very fine grits the leading edge no longer engages the abrasive and it does not polish.

2. I expect a collection of proper, flat,stones will work just fine. The problem with stones is the number($$) that are necessary to go from initial heavy material removal to final polish. If too big jumps between grits are taken rogue scratches will likely show up along the way(and there are a lot of other sources of rouge scratches as well).

3. Silicon carbide is an exceptionally poor abrasive for tool steels. It is brittle and fractures readily under the forces of grinding. So it wears out very quickly, especially in the coarser grits. 120 grit silicon carbide charged on a cast iron plate lasted seconds with this tool steel. Alumina-zirconium is a good abrasive. Aluminium oxide is Ok and diamonds are best.

4. Diamond abrasive is the fastest and cheapest abrasive, providing you can find something cheap and appropriate to charge it onto. We did 35 tools and used up no more than 1/2 ml of paste per grit for a total cost of less than $10, including the cost of initially charging the plates. It took about 45 minutes per grit for total of the 35 tools. Much of the time was spent insuring cleanliness to avoid contamination between grits. 20 strokes per grit was sufficient.

5. Plate material- The secret to back flattening is a nondeformable, flat abrasive surface. the following was found to not work- various abrasive sheets on 1/2" glass, diamonds on copper circuit board or wood. Diamond manufacturers recommend charging diamond onto cast iron. We had some surface-ground cast iron plates given to us. Charged with but a tiny amount of diamond paste they cut aggressively and the metal remained dead flat. Hoooray!! Once the plates were initially charged it took but about 10-20 mg of paste per tool. Even down to 6 micron one could hear the diamonds rapidly abrading away this very abrasion resistant metal.

Diamond on copper circuit board was ok for bevels, but not flat enough for backs. The cut was a bit less aggressive than with cast iron(perhaps the diamonds embed more). It took a lot of diamond to charge a piece of beech wood and the cut was much less aggressive. So, 6 micron on wood was about like 1 to 3 micron on cast iron. I think diamond on wood could be good for polishing. Did not try diamond on plastic.

Our procedure- Initial grinding was with Makita horizontal water stone. It was kept flat by occasionally grinding a big-long piece of hardened CPM3V (the draw knife). Due to my inexperience some of the tools were left with deep 36 grit fabrication scratches before heat treating(big mistake). The Makita removed these mistakes fairly quickly. Alternatively, initial flattening could have been done by hand lapping with 60 micron diamond charged onto cast iron, but this was slower than the powered Makita. Then the tools were lapped on a succession of cast iron plates charged with 30, 15, 9, and 6 micron diamond paste. Final polishing was with 6 micron diamond on beech wood (but we would have used a finer grade of diamond on cast iron if we had an additional cast iron plate).

The inside of curved tools(sweeps and gouges) were done by charging diamond onto aluminium rod and turning the rod at about 100 rpm in a lathe. 60 micron diamond cut very rapidly with this arrangement such that some very coarse fabrication scratches were quickly smoothed.

If there is a source of cheap, flat cast iron out there diamonds are easily the fastest, cheapest way to abrade tool steel. We need 3 more plates if anyone knows a source.

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#9

Re: did 35 last night

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Interesting notes, Bill. I suppose that the need for several plates is because the diamonds really do get IMBEDDED in the iron, and one will get subsequent grit contamination?

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#10

Re: did 35 last night

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I haven't yet gotten my diamond flattening setup established, but I'd say that all of Bill's observations about other methods generally concurs with mine, particularly with respect to scary sharp methods. Mylar backed sheets are less susceptible to these problems, but in my experience don't entirely eliminate it. For now, waterstones are my most effective method, as is deliniated in the link Don helpfully posted, but I take Bill's observations very seriously and intend to see if they are replicated in my shop.

One thought I have with regards to all free particle lapping, is the the free abrasive particles are apt to rub against other particles of their type and prematurely blunt them. Thus I suspect it is highly desirable to have a lapping plate what will maximally embed (and thus stabilize) the particles in the plate, thus enhancing particle effective life and increasing the efficiency of the cutting action.

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#11

answers to questions

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>We consulted a diamond fabrication company. Diamonds are shaped by grinding diamond with diamond powder charged to a cast iron plate with olive oil, we were told. We were told that cast iron is uniquely superior for this task and that plates last "forever". I think we were told that the carbon in the plate is important as well as hardness and grain structure. Other metal might work but presumable not as well. I think the diamonds embed in the metal so one plate per grit is necessary. We had enough previous problem with rogue scratches that we took no chances. We experienced no rogue scratches in this session. I think it is important to not make big jumps in grit size, as any defect in a previous grit will be removed in the subsequent grit if the jump is not too big. So, for example, it is possible to remove 120 micron scratches with 30 micron, but it takes much longer than when the sequence is 120, 60, 30 vs 120, 30.

After the plate was initialy charged, just a smidgen of paste was applied to each additional tool surface; 10-20 mg. Occasionally, a fraction of a drop of WD 40 was added if the paste got too sticky. You can hear metal grinding away when all is working well. The grung that accumulated was floated off the end of the plate by the WD 40. No doubt some diamonds went with it, but we presumed that was the cost of doing business.

We have no idea if this all is the best lapping technique. Plate lapping is a common machining operation and maybe someone who knows what they are doing will chime in and tell us what common practice is.

Now if someone will discover a cheap source of lapping plate material, this technique will become popular.

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#12

Aluminum Zirconia?

Sanford Levy

>I wonder if anyone has any experience using aluminum zirconia paper on glass for quick flattening of irons and even plane bottoms. I have seen it referred to in discussions of scary and in flattening planes, but I have never talked to anyone who has tried it. It is made specifically for quick metal removal, far quicker than the usual sandpapers we woodworkers might have. It is now sold by a few woodworking onlines stores such as LV and Klingspor, and is widely available on the web from other sources. It is supposed to be very fast. Unfortunately, I have not seen it in smaller than 120 grit. But since the hardest part of flattening an iron or plane bottom is the lower grits, I assume it would be a good start. I would love to hear from someone who has tried it! Sanford

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#13

have used extensively

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Check our article on sharpening in Articles section. It is available from Klingspor up to 400 grit. It is used when heavy loads are used on the abrasive. So, for example it is used in abrasive planning. It is harder than alumina, with alumina's toughness. It holds up much better than silicon carbide. Its major cost advantage (performance vs abrasive price) is in the coarser grades for typical wood and metal sanding, according to Klingspor. For abrasive sheet sharpening of bevels I use it up to 220 grit for typical tool steels and then go to alumina. However, for CPM3V, alumina is not hard enough, so there is benefit in using this abrasive up to 400 grit.

The paper backed belt material from Klingspor(PS21) glues well to flat surfaces and is a good choice for heavy duty material removal. For routine sharpening I use PS 36 in a PSA backing, as this lighter weight lays flatter in the finer grits, but does not hold up as well as PS21. (Personally I have never successfully flattened anything (plane irons or plane soles) with an abrasive sheet glued to flat substrate.)

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#14

Re: have used extensively

Steve Knight

>as far as I know you can't get it above 120. My industrail supplier told me it can't be made finer. and I have never seen it in belt form above 120. I think I have seen sheets but I don't think it was really the same thing.

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#15

rookie questions

Clay Craig in Miami

>I'm likely missing something - but if the cast iron is soft enough that the diamond embeds, why doesn't it 'dish' as it is used? It can't be harder than the CPM3V steel you're using, or diamond would embed there too - ?

For polishing diamonds themselves this may not be a problem, because each facet is so small - a tiny fraction of 1% of the area of a plane iron back. So, could 'broad' dishing of the plate not be an issue for polishing diamond facets but become one for tools?

Clay

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#16

contact Klingspor for up to 400 grit

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Klingspor has several types of backings coated with alumina-zirconium. Their PS 21 material is available through 400 grit. Belts of any size can be fabricated from PS 21, or it can be purchased in rolls for glueing down to flat surface. I have several (6 x 48 and 1 x 42) and had good success with them. Only coarser grits are available on the heavier cloth backing.

It doesn't seem to be widely known among woodworkers but Klingspor has an industrial abrasives catalog(and division) that lists all their coated products. They will custom slit, make belts, or apply pressure adhesive backing to any coated product they sell. All their belts are "custom" made so it costs no extra to have a belt made to order from any coated product they have on hand. Here in TN I typically get delivery 1-2 days after ordering.

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#17

Re: Flattening Yet Again

George D. Huron

>I don't think that it takes forever (for a chisel in reasonable shape to start out with). Make sure the back is either almost flat or concave to start out with (return a convex chisel). Start with 80 grit and use reasonable pressure when lapping. Move to 120 grit and then I switch to stones. I use pieces of adhesive backed sandpaper that I adhere to glass or even a piece of melamine. I purchased the adhesive from Klingspore in rolls of 4 inches or so wide by I forget how long. I have used very little of it since I brush it with a file card when it clogs and it retains its sharpness for more than one usage.

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#18

Kanaban Plates? *LINK*

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>What about the Kanaban lapping plates of which Russell wrote about his using with silicon carbide abrasives?


Kanaban

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#19

Re: rookie questions

Russell Seaton

>I'm likely missing something - but if the cast iron is soft enough that the diamond embeds, why doesn't it 'dish' as it is used? It can't be harder than the CPM3V steel you're using, or diamond would embed there too - ?

Lapping requires the three parts (1.cast iron lapping plate, 2.plane iron being flattened, 3.dimaond abrasives) to be of different hardness. The softest part needs to be the alpping plate. The hardest part needs to be the abrasive. The medium part needs to be the piece being flattened, the plane iron. The hard diamonds imbed in the softer of the two other parts. This is the cast iron plate. The diamonds stay imbedded in the soft cast iron and do not move. Just the diamonds points stick up above the soft cast iron. The plane iron is then rubbed over the tips of the diamond and is abraded. Similar to the way sandpaper works. The aluminum oxide abrasives are imbedded in the resin coating on the paper. The wood is rubbed over the fixed in place abrasives and gets abraded.

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#20

Kanaban

Sanford Levy

>Yes, I have been looking at those. Does anyone know what they are made of? As everyone points out, the plate needs to be soft enough for the diamonds to stick in and adhere properly. I have written Japan Woodworker about this, and will report if I get a response. Sanford

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#21

zirconia

Sanford Levy

>Thanks Bill. I found their industrial site at http://www.klingspor.com/. You mention PS 21. Sorry for my ignorance, but what is that? Is that the backing? I see that this site does not sell retail. Do you figure out what you want and ask the regular woodworking Klingspor to get it for you? By the way, you have mentioned several times lack of luck sharpening on sandpaper etc. I have had fair luck. The iron always seems to push up the paper just enough to blunt the edge I am trying to sharpen. Decent result but not great. I wondered whether I was doing something wrong! Sanford

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#22

answers to questions about Klingspor

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>1. I have excellent success sharpening with abrasive sheets. I always pull that to be sharpened toward me. If it makes a slight convex bevel, all the better I suspect. The knife makers believe this sort of bevel is more durable. I have never been successful truely flattening anything, especially something as big as a plane.

2. The Klingspor numbering system designates the backing material and grit composition and coating density. PS 21 is a heavy paper, close coat, Al/Zr. PS 36 a lighter paper. Other numbers various kinds of cloth. There are dozens of numbers, all explained in catalog.

3. If you pay your bills Klingspor is happy to establish an account for your "business". Ask for discount schedule. It should be around 33-40%. Also request Industrial Abrasives catalog which is a wealth of great information. Visit with them at IWF in Atlanta in August and learn all about these things.

4. They sell more stuff than is on the web site. Call customer service and ask if you need something you don't see.

4. Their technical staff(often a knowledgable lady) is great at answering abrasive questions(maybe that should be worded "questions about abrasives"!).

Re: Flattening Yet Again

#23

Kanaban

Sanford Levy

>Japan Woodworker says that their kanaban lapping plate is made of mild steel (as I expected) and should work well for diamond paste as well as silicon carbide. Since it is relatively inexpensive I think I will give it a try. Sanford

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#24

Klingspor

Sanford Levy

>Thanks for the information. Sorry about the sharpening confusion: it must have been another poster who reported some trouble sharpening with abrasive sheets!

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#25

Re: Kanaban

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Do let us know your results, and I suppose you should be aware of possible grit contamination between different sizes.

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