Question for Sgian Dubh *LINK*

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Derek's Link to W/C Thread w/photos

Goddard desks

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The one Goddard "Newport Desk" I have data on is 42" wide. Goddard found no need for a center support in the drawers.

The Headley Winchester desk is 41" wide and similarly does not employ a center divider. I have not seen a center support in any of of the Headley case pieces.

I asked Mayberry about center dividers. He has never used a center divider in any Period reproduction nor seen its use in Period plans he has.

I don't recall seeing a center divider in any American made Period desk, but my number actually poked into is limited.

It is not even clear from a structural analysis that a center support adds significant load bearing strength to a drawer.

I look forward to Richards comments on the topic. From the English antiques I see in abundance at the Shelbyville shop center dividers seem to be an English fashion that shows up in their unusual habit of running the grain of the drawer bottoms front to back rather than side to side. The whole drawer bottom issue in English case goods may have more to do with lumber availability than engineering (that statement is a guess).

Re: Goddard desks

Hank Knight

Thanks, Bill. There are several reasons I wan t to use slips with a center divider. First, I like the look; and, intuitively, it seems that the center divider would add strength to thin drawer bottoms. I'm using some very old, wide white pine I have for the bottoms. I don't' have a lot of it, but I think I can resew 5/16" to 3/8" thick panels for the bottoms. Because the pine boards have some large knots, I can't get clear panels the full width of the drawers. I can get at least half width, so a center divider looks like a viable option - but more work.

Re: Goddard desks

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I would not be surprised to learn that the reason you are moved to a center divider, namely lumber limitation, is the same reason we see it in English furniture. One can be sure Goddard did not have a white pine lumber limitation in 1750.

Re: Goddard desks

Hank Knight

Trees in 1750 were a lot different than today's trees.

Re: Question for Sgian Dubh

Sgian Dubh

"I understand notching the muntin and screwing/gluing it to the drawer back. I don't understand dovetailing and screwing it into the drawer front. Is the strength of a screwed dovetail joint necessary here? Why not simply glue a tenon onto the groove plowed into the drawer front just like the side slips? Would you (or anyone else) mind elaborating on this construction detail?"

Hank, if you think about it, creating a tenon to fit into the groove worked in the drawer front means you probably really need to include the muntin at the same time as you assemble the four sides of the drawer box. The alternative, installing a muntin after drawer box assembly, with its tenon at the front and a notch at the back to fit under the drawer back, would likely mean bowing the back to accommodate the muntin notch and to allow the tenon to go into the groove at the front, and as this tenon goes into place the drawer back would straighten.

On the other hand, a muntin dovetailed at the front, and notched at the back lets the maker simply drop the muntin into place vertically with the drawer box sat upside down on a flat surface. I suppose the dovetail isn't really critical - you could simply cut a rectangular notch to match a tongue worked at the front end of the muntin. But this wouldn't make much difference to the technical challenge because how much harder can it really be to cut a simple dovetail on the end of the muntin and a matching socket in the back of the drawer front?

As to the screws, their only purpose as far as I can tell, is just to lock the muntin in place vertically. Slainte.

Re: Goddard desks

Sgian Dubh

"It is not even clear from a structural analysis that a center support adds significant load bearing strength to a drawer.

From the English antiques I see in abundance at the Shelbyville shop center dividers seem to be an English fashion that shows up in their unusual habit of running the grain of the drawer bottoms front to back rather than side to side. The whole drawer bottom issue in English case goods may have more to do with lumber availability than engineering (that statement is a guess)."

I tend to agree that a centre muntin in a wide drawer may add marginal strength in many cases. But I suppose it depends a bit on what the drawer carries. I've made wide drawers both with and without muntins, and their inclusion depends on a number of factors. If I'm doing something 'traditional' a muntin is more likely to be included than if I'm doing something contemporary, such as a drawer mounted on metal slides.

As to grain direction of drawer bottoms, here in the UK it was usual for the grain to run front to back prior to about the mid-eighteenth century. From then on it's been usual to have the drawer bottom grain run side to side. However, there have been quite a number of exceptions to both those practices noted in both eras, that is, pre and post roughly 1750. Even the practice of holding drawer bottoms unglued in a groove rather than glued and nailed into a rebate, plus a fillet as a running surface, didn't become common practice until about the same time.

I guess one factor to take into account is how relatively slow communication was back then. What became fashionable or 'best practice' in the more 'sophisticated' city based practices, London for example, might take years, and maybe decades to work their way into the mindset and practices of a man-of-parts village 'joyner' away out in the middle of nowhere. Slainte.

Re: Question for Sgian Dubh

Hank Knight

Thank you, Richard. That makes perfect sense.