under sink cut-off valve question

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

Dick Coers

Menards sells a chrome valve they call 1/4 turn. It’s a ball valve with a less industrial look than the big bent steel handle valves.

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

mark nowicki

Yes, Dahl, 1/4 turn mini ball .

I have installed over a hundred of these (the retrofit type).

In Canada, I get them at Home Depot.

https://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves.php

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

Keith Newton

Dick, I just replaced one like that last week for a friend. It was a lot quieter than the old screw in type also, I suppose due to a fairer flow path.

Bill, is there not a packing nut that can be tightened around the stem? Of course that will make it harder to turn off.

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

JL

Another + for the ball valve in under sink use.

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

As seen in the picture, I have a 1/4 turn in there now and that is what is leaking from hard water scoring.....I presume. Will check out the brand you recommended. Do you have experience on whether they are resistant to hard water deposits that in turn apparently score the ball seal?

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

mark nowicki

I have installed them in my rentals, and my house.

Have yet to experience any leaks or failures.

I looked it up and Montreal's water is about 116 ppm, or moderately hard.

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Bill,

Do you mean leaking out of the valve onto the floor of the cabinet, or leaking through the valve into the line on the downstream end of the valve?

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

John K Jordan

I find that if I occasionally (every few months) rotate all the undersink valves they turn freely when I need them to. Maybe it keeps them "exercised."

clarifying question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Any valve I have ever installed works forever until it is closed and then opened. Tell me if you have installed these valves, left them in service open for a year+ and then closed and opened them, like for changing a toilet valve, and they didn't leak.

If they pass this test they are resistant to the problem I want to eliminate.

Re: under sink cut-off valve question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Do you mean leaking out of the valve onto the floor of the cabinet.....yes

or leaking through the valve into the line on the downstream end of the valve...these are obviously cut off valves to things like toilets, sinks, dishwasher, or in this case a water filter. How would I know, or care?

One Idea

David Yoho

Bill, most of these 1/4 turn valves are brass or bronze and would be susceptible to the problem you stated due to their softness. I wonder if a stainless steel mini ball valve would fair any better. I don't think you would find them at the local big box store but perhaps a nearby plumbing supply would have them. They are available on Amazon but you would have to get the right size connection configuration for your application.

Thanks for the clarification

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

I've yet to have one of those ball valves leak at the seals, but my water may be kinder to the plumbing than yours. We have neighbors - a mile or mile plus away - whose house is on a well, and whose water is so aggressive it eats copper pipe.

So far as I know, responding to Keith's question, ball type valves have no adjustable packing. The seals leak or they don't; if they leak, it's replacement time.

If you've got a local plumbing supply catering to pros that will sell to civilians, you might go talk to them. You might have to pay more for a pro-grade valve, but you might never have to replace it, either. The valves from the big boxy stores (Home Desperate, Lowe's, Menard's) or your local hardware may not be the highest quality.

Re: clarifying question

mark nowicki

They didn't leak.

Re: clarifying question

mark nowicki

I know you didn't ask but I will say it anyway,

if you are getting old and creaky as I am, this has become my go to plumbing tool:

https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/ez-change-faucet-tool

Not a lot of options...

John in NM

Every ball valve I've used has a PTFE seal around the ball. Its soft compared to calcite (calcite is a bit softer than a steel knife blade). Only workable option is to exercise the valves often enough to knock the little crystals off before they become big and damage the seal when moved. Probably even doing that will wear out the seal eventually, and its a pain in the neck to do however often.

Other option is a bronze gate valve that is heavy enough to crush the scale if forced. Never seen one of those used as a supply stop though (that is what these are called, there's angle stops and straight stops - if you go to a pro supplier ask for an angle stop - that's whats in the picture).

Maybe put a gate valve in on the water filter - that is the one you're going to have to shut off more often right?

Re: Not a lot of options...

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Gate valves can jam, too, in water with particulates or compounds that settle out as crystals. They may not leak on the floor, but they can refuse to close all the way.

Re: Not a lot of options...

John in NM

Yeah, you have to work any valve now and then, especially with hard water. At least with a gate you have a fighting chance.

Curious about ball valve seals, I spent some time looking at others that McMaster Carr have listed. The only seal options I saw beyond PTFE were valves designed for fuels and had either fluoroelastomer, graphite, or PTFE for seals. Of those, I bet the PTFE is the most durable for hard water.

Ball valves and hard water

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have ball valves all over the farm turning on and off the same water source. The ones on 3/4 pipe and larger never acquire leaks and some have been in service for 25 years. There is no inherent problem with ball valves and hard water.

The apparently crappy ones installed under the sink invariably leak after they set a year and then are rotated, presumably because the seal between the water and operating axis becomes damaged by calcium carbonate deposit.

I am hopeful the use of some higher quality valve, as suggested, will eliminate the problem.

Re: Ball valves and hard water

Johanna Johanson

Untreated, our water has a hardness rating of 114 grains! We go through 40 lbs of potassium (or sometimes more) a week. Our water is filtered through layers of limestone in the Sandia Mountains.