Scorched Earth Advice on Shellac

Effective price for button lac in india

David Weaver

Just out of curiosity, I went out as there are places that specialize in shellac (wellermart is one that I've been using, no clue what that is ,but they're cheap).

google brought me a listing from india and light pure button lac comes up as ..

... wait for it....

about $3 a pound.

Re: Effective price for button lac in india

Barry Irby

$3 a pound means nothing to me, I never bought ANY, but I am guessing that's pretty cheap. The problem is you don't know hat you are really getting or any idea of the quality, or how long it will take to arrive, and you effectively have no recourse if there is something you don't like about it.

OTOH, if it works out, you can get a lifetime supply for an amount of money that won't separate you from poverty.

Re: Effective price for button lac in india

David Weaver

I don't know that you could even buy it, but it's a hand made product and has some dirt in it (so there's no reason to believe it's not the same).

All that said, the US seller I use charges $24 a pound. When you're french polishing, a pound is probably enough for an entire piece made with cherry, plus a couple of bucks for alcohol, so it's not particularly expensive in general.

For comparison (this weller place sells the darker dewaxed shellacs in a similar range), rockler and woodcraft have prices that generally hover around $45-$80 a pound.

Zinsser premixed stuff is fine in my experience, too - I've never had any problems with any of it.

Re: Scorched Earth Advice on Shellac

Sgian Dubh

" ... I came across some gurus and their articles about things and I just wonder why they feel the need to express some definitive opinion about something that's probably not that definitive in reality.

...'"there's no reason to ever buy anything other than dewaxed shellac"', and a subsequent discussion about why waxed shellac is actually inferior."

I suspect those "definitive opinions" about dewaxed shellac are some sort of misunderstanding. There is one situation I can think of where using dewaxed shellac is generally a safer option than using a regular waxed shellac, and it relates to the use of shellac as a barrier or primer coat between a suspect base wood, e.g., a waxy or oily surface, silicone contamination, resinous wood, etc, and a subsequent preferred finish, such as pre-cat lacquer, oil varnish, a water borne varnish, etc.

Shellac is very good at adhering to various types of suspect surfaces: it adheres very well to all sorts of challenging bases, as well as adhering well to good clean surfaces, and as such can act as a primer or sealer coat to keep more finicky finishes away from something that would otherwise cause them to fail one way or another.

Many other types of finish adhere very well to shellac, whether it's the waxed variety or the dewaxed form. But, I'm aware that some of the waterborne finishes are reputed to not adhere well to waxy shellac, but will stick satisfactorily to the dewaxed variety. So, there's a theme that the general advice to inexperienced finishers being that, if you're going to use shellac as a barrier coat as just described then it's best always to use the dewaxed variety, and this will ensure satisfactory adhesion of any other type of finish that is subsequently applied.

So, my theory is that the dewaxed only mantra you mentioned comes from this source. As to which form of shellac is generally better for shellac only finishing, whether sprayed, french polished, brushed, etc, I don't have anything 'definitive' to say on the waxy or dewaxed shellac debate. Surely it's a case of picking the type of shellac to suit the polishing task at hand, rather than limiting yourself to one form or another ... isn't it, ha, ha. ? Slainte.

I follow with great interest.....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

...your quest for inexpensive shellac. You know we are getting ripped when one can but a gallon of Zinsser that contains 3 pounds of shellac, plus solvent, for about the same price as a pound of flakes.

you're right...

David Weaver

..if I recall, the reasoning was something along the lines of:

* if it has wax, you can't universally use it between unlike coats

* it's not true that the durability or result of waxed shellac is any different than dewaxed

That may be the case. It's interesting that the industry who makes button and seedlac suggests that the abrasion resistance is a little better than dewaxed or other types, so they specify button lac for floors and musical instruments (something I wasn't aware of until lunch today - i knew of the floor part).

It reminds me of discussions about guitar tone, though. Maybe the difference is too slight to be material vs. other types of finish (solvent polyurethane sure does well on floors in my experience). As far as guitars go, two guys will argue about maple vs. rosewood stratocaster fingerboards and just about get to physical assault, and a third guy will say "I can't tell the difference between the two - they sound the same, and nothing like a les paul".

I haven't tried any of the waxed shellacs as a sealer or barrier. The canned version of dewax is available here cheap and easy (and I'm sure it would do fine french polishing if I didn't venture into buying buttons - it's locally cheaper by the volume).

I've seen the argument from others before, though, that they'd never touch a piece of nice furniture with pre-mixed shellac.

I just can't see what's wrong with any of it if you don't intentionally break known rules. It all seems to work fine.

Re: I follow with great interest.....

David Weaver

I believe that's about 2.2 pounds of shellac in a gallon can with a 3 pound cut

8* 3/(3+8) = 2.182

But, yes, as far as i know, that's the cheapest. And it's good for quite a long time before it gets to be slow-hardening if the can isn't already old (you need to take a magazine article with you to read the date on the can now that it's coded, though).

last gallon cans I bought were $38 plus tax. I think it would cost closer to $55 to get a kilo button lac and the alcohol of decent quality (green can kleen strip) to dissolve it - if that's even available in gallons.

I'm sure rustoleum has a much better source for their shellac than my mail order sources, and it's a good deal if you want one of the three colors they sell.

Re: Scorched Earth Advice on Shellac

Don Stephan

Regarding the two types of shellac, I also read once or twice that shellac with wax would water spot more easily than dewaxed. I've only used dewaxed shellac.

I haven't got a clue...

David Weaver

..which one water spots more easily, but any significant contact with water for more than just a little bit will cause all of it to spot.

I made two cases for my kids, and both have had slobber (they've outgrown that) and other drips on them. In each case, a mark is left behind (the shellac is blonde zinsser, but I've had the same thing on seal coat dewaxed).

Fortunately, a very light wipe seems to eliminate it.

Fresher shellac apparently has better water resistance, and I wouldn't be surprised if freshness was more important than wax or not.

For my two cases, I allowed them to take marks, etc, for five years for one and 8 for another until the static from the mrs. became too much. As lazy as I am, I used a piece of scrap cloth and a can of spray shellac, sprayed the rag and then wiped as little as I could on the problem spots (so as not to create a transition area) and all of the marks are gone. Total time spent for all of this with both pieces wasn't more than 5 minutes, and my one-time diversion to spraying water based finishes (they do, after all, last really well) is on hold and i'm back to using shellac, realizing that as long as i'm alive, every fix will likely be easy.

Probably, yes...

John in NM

I recall that water spotting is the result of emulsification between the wax and water. Bill can correct me if that's wrong, he knows waaaaaay more about pretty much anything chemical than do I (perhaps excepting mineralogy )

I would expect that a dewaxed shellac finish would be less prone to water spotting than a button lac finish - provided that the dewaxed never had Pledge polish or another waxy coat added later.

I only recently got some button lac to put a period correct finish on a Swiss surplus rifle that needed some stock repairs. What I want out of the button is that color, wax or not is secondary (though it seems to take longer to form a hard finish - not a big deal once you know).

Re: Scorched Earth Advice on Shellac

john in lutz

I am primary a turner and use de waxed shellac as a sealer. I have read that if if shellac is the final finish then it is good to use shellac with wax. This may especially apply when you are french polishing. The wax in the shellac may work a lubricant in the process. It may slow the drying process a small amount.

I'm not sure...

David Weaver

..of the reason for the wax, but read somewhere that floors used to be done with shellac, and when they were, they needed to be waxed periodically. One of the things that sold people on polyurethane for floors was the fact that they don't need any follow-up maintenance (aside from repairs due to wear, etc).

I never really read why it was that wax was recommended, but I've always used wax when applying dewaxed shellac only, if for no other reason, it kind of short cuts the process and allows you to remove some irregularities while you're applying it (as in, it's a nice lubricant for something like 4 ought steel wool).

i'd be interested in knowing what the purpose of wax was in each case - is it a moisture barrier?

reading further about the floors...

David Weaver

..i'm not tempted to use shellac on floors in my house, but it does sound like polyurethane is a trade that a woodworker doesn't necessarily need to make.

The literature prescribes wax to protect the floor from water and alcohol (of course, that would only be a little bit of protection) and suggests that the aesthetics are better with the wax, too. Probably are.