Finish Industry Consolidation Update?

question is for furniture and instrument only

David Weaver

Not concerned if concrete sealers or house paints or something are consolidated. Just poly, lacquer, stains, etc.

Wipe-On Poly

Michael Farinella

You can still buy Minwax wipe on poly on Amazon. Not sure if this answers your question.

Re: Wipe-On Poly

David Weaver

Sort of. It's priced for high toned folks there. It was $12 at home depot. I guess I'll check lowes and drive further.

places that carry both online (menards, which doesn't have locations here) suggest the minwax is still similar in price, but it's about $24 on amazon for a quart.

Watco apparently reformulated theirs as the reviews on amazon went from good to terrible all at one time with self-described professional finishers stating that something changed drastically.

I'm an infrequent user of polyurethane. I guess they're going to pot like commonly available varnishes (sherwin williams) did many years go. In favor of the water-based and zero VOC stuff, though I think in the case of home depot in the near term, it was money motivated. Everything that was marked minwax before is now varathane or some rustoleum brand at a much higher price. Wood fillers that were $3 are now $5, etc - same sized container, different company, flashier packaging. Same thing for me - infrequent customer as those are things I'd use in the house and not the shop, but not a fan of home depots revenue generating efforts.

quick follow up...

David Weaver

..lowes carries minwax. their price suggests that they think it's better than menards does, but at least it's still relatively local for me.

Feedback pattern doesn't suggest any reformulation.

Thanks!

Re: quick follow up...

Michael Farinella

FWIW, I bought the Watco from my local HD (that's all they had). The results so far, IMO, are mediocre.

That's what the reviewers said...

David Weaver

..more or less, old product, wipe on, get great result.

new product, harder to work with and doesn't lay out flat like the old stuff.

My experience with the minwax is that it covers thin since you're wiping it on, but there's little to do to get excellent results with it. I'm sure the thin coats would wear out a regular user, but I use it too seldom to be bothered by the little bit of extra time. You might like the minwax better if you have a lowes or menards nearby.

Re: quick follow up...

David Weaver

Thanks, Jim! I was surprised in browsing after asking the question that Minwax seemed to have a standalone site.

With your adding minwax to S-W brands, I think I've kind of answered my own questions now. With the apparent changes to watco, someone like me (who uses a can of poly once a decade) may be well served to buy and store a can or two of what I like.

I hope nobody modifies the lac beetle!

need varnish? Use Waterlox

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have experimented with several varnish products because I like the look of a varnish finish. Waterlox has an optimum combination of luster, hardness, drying rate, application properties.

A bit late!!

David Weaver

I haven't used waterlox, but as you're probably aware from the other forum, have already made a sizable batch of pine and dammar varnish (and went to the trouble of finding a sharp crisp smelling pine turpentine like people would remember from years ago).

I'm committed to using that, though I do have to experiment with drier. But as long as George is still ticking, I've got good practical advice for adding driers to varnish.

No reason for me to believe that the varnish I make will be as good or better than waterlox, but I quite liked the making process.

Which . . .

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Waterlox are you referring to?

I use red-can sealer all the time, and have used green-can gloss on turning, but I've not seen a finish with tung oil that is particularly hard. They make marine finishes but I've not tried them.

Re: Which . . .

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have been using "gloss", green can. It is substantially harder than PL 38, for example, by finger nail dent test.

How hard a varnish is depends on the resin component but more on the "oil" to resin ratio ("long" or "short" terms of the trade).

A urethane varnish can be made very hard, or not. The name "urethane" tells how the polymer is made and nothing about properties of the cured varnish. The old "moisture cured" urethanes employing the nasty diisocyanate crosslinking were so hard I could not finger nail dent them.

Re: need varnish? Use Waterlox

Don Stephan

After P&L 38 alkyd varnish was discontinued, I spent a couple weeks looking for a substitute wiping finish for wooden bowls. Eventually I decided to try Waterlox. On a call to the company I learned they will soon (or have

by now) discontinue their water borne products. Because their web site advised to apply not their (solvent) Gloss Finish but their (solvent) Original Sealer/Finish to raw wood, I purchased a quart of Sealer/Finish last summer to try it out. I used it straight from the can as a wiping varnish on a 6" diameter black cherry bowl. I followed their instructions to allow 24 hours between coats. Application was as easy and trouble free as thinned P&L 38 alkyd varnish.

After a couple weeks to cure, I began using the bowl daily for my milk and corn flakes breakfast. I washed the bowl each day with the soft wide of a kitchen sponge and a drop or two of liquid dish soap, towel dried, and put back on the shelf.

After five months of use I brought it into my studio to compare with a red oak bowl finished with P&L 38 gloss I used daily for over two years. There were areas on the black cherry bowl that looked like raw wood. In response to an email query Waterlox replied that dish soap will "break down the oil bonds." If memory serves, the reply said the same was true with their Gloss Finish.

I'm giving the rest of the Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish to another woodworker with a description of my experience.

I'm still hoping to find an alkyd varnish that is still manufactured.

Treenware

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

and film finishes just don't mix well; if they don't abrade or dissolve, they flake off. Daily use bowls need nothing more than an application of mineral oil and wax (paraffin or carnauba). You will not find a film/curing finish that holds up on the salad (or cereal) bowls.

Re: Treenware

Don Stephan

An often stated guideline from turners who sell at arts and crafts shows is "Shine sells." And based on interactions with my customers, there would be little interest in utility bowls that do not have at least a semi gloss hard finish.

Re: Treenware

Clint Searl

A urushi lacquer finish is just about bullet proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJknAo0temI

Re: Treenware

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

IIRC, Urushi is made with a fair amount of toxic stuff. YMMV, but I would not use that finish on wood that will be used to hold/serve food. "Treenware" I define as cereal and salad bowls and other items for either serving or processing food like platters and cutting/carving boards. Repeated wetting/washing etc. over time (aside from seasonal expansion and contraction) will produce tiny cracks. Once the water etm. gets under the film, the flaking and shedding will start. Purchasers, especially those at craft shows, will not have the ability for repair. What's fine for shinny display and light use bowls, will fail over time.

Re: Treenware

Clint Searl

It's been used in food service for many hundreds of years in Japan.

this post sent me on an entertaining search

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I never heard of this stuff. So I searched it.

I found this information from a Japanese finisher:

"These days most furniture makers use chemical paints. However, it has become clear that exposure to some chemical compounds is hazardous to health.

I use Urushi despite the labor intensive process it requires because it is strong and beautiful, and since it is a natural product, it poses no health hazards."

Now for some science instead of BS that I found in scientific papers on it (use Google Scholar to find the science). If I used this stuff my throat would swell shut among other reactions all over my body and I would die. This stuff and anthrax are all "natural"..... as he says. No health hazard indeed.

"Boiled" linseed oil has a metal "dryer" added to cure the oil which is a triply unsaturated chemical.

This sap has a copper glycol protein that functions exactly like the metal drier in boiled linseed oil which is also a similar triply unsaturated molecule. Both chemicals are oxidation catalysts that cross link the unsaturation.

The fatty portion of this molecule is similar to the fatty portion of the linseed oil molecule responsible for curing. It will carry this stuff through the skin barrier if contact is long enough. The phenol portion of this molecule will make the cured resin harder than cured linseed oil. The phenol portion of this molecule will react with subcutaneous skin cells. My immune system will recognize these altered cells as foreign and mount a vigorous attack on them. The result is not pretty.

Mr. Weaver likes making stuff rather than buying it. If adventurous he might slit some poison ivy vines and have at making some genuine American Japanese lacquer from the sap.

Remind me to never come near a Japanese lacquered object.

Re: this post sent me on an entertaining search

rum

Alas (thankfully?) poison ivy has an insufficient percentage of the sap that is urushiol to polymerize without some sort of purification.

Once it's fully cured it's pretty much non-reactive so unless you were very unlucky any lacquer ware is pretty safe,

If you're super sensitive you might also want to know that Mango sap has moderate amounts of urushiol as well. I know one person that was hospitalized (briefly, then a couple weeks of steroid shots) due to picking mango's into her shirt. Oddly even people who are sensitive to it can pretty much all eat the fruit (although I have another friend who has someone else cut them for her and can't let even the fruit touch her lips/face but carefully eats it off of a toothpick - yes good fresh mango is perhaps good enough to be worth that).

curing

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Once it's fully cured it's pretty much non-reactive so unless you were very unlucky any lacquer ware is pretty safe,

The problem is as it cures the viscosity goes to the moon the mobility of the remaining unreacted monomer becomes constrained and the reaction rate tanks. On the other hand, that fact makes it more difficult for the nasty monomer to diffuse out and get me. But you are correct, after some amount of time it will be safe even for someone highly sensitized to poison ivy to be near it once the unreacted stuff that blooms to the surface is washed off. I have to imagine that unlike northern Europeans, Japanese must not be allergic to poison ivy.