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Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

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Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#1

Finishes:  Claims, Myths, and Questions

Don Stephan

If memory serves, for a long time finishes generally have been classified as being either penetrating or film forming, with no suggestion of a middle ground.

Raw wood is not a solid substance like plastic or metal – there are air spaces between the cell walls and within them. The larger cells in red oak for example are visibly hollow to the naked eye. But it is never explained how the size of molecules in the various finishes compares to the diameter of the spaces between and within wood cells – can the molecules of finish actually fit within these spaces? If they are small enough, do they actually enter these spaces?

Sometimes the rationale that a finish is penetrating is the statement that when a finish is applied to wood the surface quickly becomes dry,“ implying the finish molecules penetrate into the wood.”

The three most common solvents used to thin finishes may be mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, and water. All three are rapidly absorbed into raw wood. So when a finish containing one of these solvents is applied and the surface “becomes dry,” are molecules of finish being drawn into the spaces in the wood with the solvent, or just the solvent?

A three pound cut of shellac is relatively thick, and many might label it a film forming finish. A one pound cut of the same shellac is much less viscous, and often is suggested as a “sealer” to reduce or eliminate stain blotching on cherry after light sanding, as it does not completely block absorption of stain into the wood. The implication would seem to be that this “wash coat” or one pound cut shellac leaves some molecules of shellac within the spaces of the wood and some molecules on the surface. Does this mean shellac can be both a film forming and a penetrating finish, and if so what is the value of the classification?

Can the same questions be asked of varnish straight from the can versus the same varnish thinned 50% with its solvent?

If a thinned version of a finish “penetrates” the wood while a thicker version forms a film on top, what would be the benefit of applying several coats of the thinned finish to fill the spaces between and within the wood cells, and then brushing a thicker version of the same finish to create a film on top of the filled wood? I’ve never seen this suggested or recommended, but at first glance it would seem to offer a different result than one or the other.

Does a sprayed lacquer sanding sealer penetrate the wood the same as a brushed one pound cut of shellac? Both are sometimes simply called “sealers” but do they interact with raw wood identically?

If memory serves, boiled linseed oil and pure tung oil are usually or always classified as penetrating finishes. But if enough coats are applied, allowing adequate time for each coat to cure, boiled linseed oil and pure tung oil eventually build a layer on top of the wood. Is this film conceptually different from the film resulting from straight-from-the-can varnish?

With time, woodworkers come to know what results to expect from finishes they use repeatedly, perhaps without an accurate understanding of the answers to the above questions. But for less experienced woodworkers, marketing statements and casual conversation can be very confusing and even misleading. I might be wrong, but it would seem to me that well defined and carefully used terms and definitions, and understanding of what is actually happening when finish meets wood, would be tremendously beneficial to all.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#2

answers that are not myths

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If memory serves, for a long time finishes generally have been classified as being either penetrating or film forming, with no suggestion of a middle ground.....baloney, they all penetrate

But it is never explained how the size of molecules in the various finishes compares to the diameter of the spaces between and within wood cells – can the molecules of finish actually fit within these spaces? If they are small enough, do they actually enter these spaces? ...I'll explain it. The pores in wood are a bizillion times bigger than a finish molecule. The spaces in the solid part of wood is even bigger that a finish molecule before curing. You know that . Water molecules come and go freely through wood.

BUT, it is not the size of the molecule that determines whether the finish penetrates the pores. Penetration is determined by the surface tension of the wood vs finish. However, if the finish wets the wood, it penetrates.

The three most common solvents used to thin finishes may be mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, and water. All three are rapidly absorbed into raw wood. So when a finish containing one of these solvents is applied and the surface “becomes dry,” are molecules of finish being drawn into the spaces in the wood with the solvent......yes

Does this mean shellac can be both a film forming and a penetrating finish, and if so what is the value of the classification? ....none

Can the same questions be asked of varnish straight from the can versus the same varnish thinned 50% with its solvent? same answer

would seem to offer a different result than one or the other....nope

Does a sprayed lacquer sanding sealer penetrate the wood the same as a brushed one pound cut of shellac? Both are sometimes simply called “sealers” but do they interact with raw wood identically? yes for any practical purpose

Is this film conceptually different from the film resulting from straight-from-the-can varnish? no

This whole discussion hinged on the flawed concept of "penetrating and film forming finishes." They are all the same. Only the amount of solids differs. It takes more solids to form a film that builds on the surface.

Well there is another effect. Oil will penetrate farther in wood because its viscosity remains low for a long time. The equivalent varnish will begin to cure and become so viscous it not longer moves into the wood. Cured varnish essentially becomes one molecule and that indeed is too big for the pores.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#3

Re: answers that are not myths

Don Stephan

But what is the practical effect or value of an oil penetrating even deeper into the wood? Looking at the surface, we can't see how far the oil has penetrated.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#4

Re: answers that are not myths

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

There certainly is no effect from oil deeper than where light rays reflect. It is not widely known, but well established, that oil followed by varnish is no different in appearance than just varnish. I first learned of this fact in a Bob Flexner article. I suppose the effect of oil, or varnish formulated from oils, has to do with refractive index of the components but that field is beyond my pay grade to explain.

Your questions seem to stem from some misinformation gained from reading something where the author didn't know what they were talking about. A common occurrence in woodworking "science".

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#5

Re: answers that are not myths

david weaver

What is the case where someone uses oil first and then applies varnish?

I have never looked at varnishing for anything other than making varnish this past year and putting it on guitars, but from the instrument maker's perspective, cutting apart violins and seeing that the oil has penetrated further into the instrument caused people to conclude *not* to use it.

The case for instruments is different, though. In violins it has been for a while - affect the stiffness of the wood as little as possible (so no penetration of oil is better). This is making its way into guitars now as buyers have started to prefer harder and thinner finishes, but buyers are uneducated about just about everything in guitars other than what they're told to look for.

I know a guy who is building kits from a canadian CNC wielding firm and then making them with all of the old school buzz words ("super hard lacquer, long tenon neck, hide glue neck pocket"). He's convinced of what he's saying, that the lacquer he uses is super hard (but it's just behlen stringed instrument lacquer), but I doubt it's much different than any others. Each time he makes an instrument, he tells me of its virtues and then he markets it and he does pretty well. About $500 for a part-time week of hobby work assembling the kits, dying them and finishing them. Nice guy, but I'd guess most of the differences he perceives or thinks he's seeing are variations in electronic components in the guitars.

As we've seen with salesmen before - it's often better for a salesman to believe what they're saying than it is for them to know what they're talking about.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#6

Clint Searl

Re: Finishes:  Claims, Myths, and Questions

Clint Searl

I tried measuring the "penetration" of BLO and raw tung oil on cherry, walnut, and red oak, and it never exceeded 2 mm regardless of the number of applications. Moreover, since the curing/polymerization effectively creates a barrier to further penetration, the first coat determines the limit. Follow-on coats simply add to the film that the initial coat starts.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#7

Re: answers that are not myths

Barry Irby

Somewhere along the way someone told me that a finish molecule compared to the pores in red oak are at about the same scale as throwing a basket ball into the grand canyon.

Probably not an accurate comparison, but perhaps a good visual. The molecules are incomprehensibly tiny.

Re: Finishes: Claims, Myths, and Questions

#8

Re: Finishes:  Claims, Myths, and Questions

AZ in Colorado Springs

The front of Minwax cans of stain says, "Penetrates, Stains, & Seals." I've advised plenty of people at the USAFA hobbyist woodshop that their finish deteriorated because of no finish coat. "But the can says it seals ..."

Marketing was invented to drive the masses towards certain products. If they mislead and confuse, the sales department certainly loses no sleep over it.

There was a Dilbert cartoon in which the punch line was "in five minutes an engineer can ruin a six month sales campaign."

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