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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

Band saw is vertically challenged

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Band saw is vertically challenged

#1

Band saw is vertically challenged

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Part 1 The cherry tree from Hell

Long ago a family with 5 boys camped in the woods. We bought the woods. A cherry tree toppled near the family camping spot. It was a nice tree with a crotch about 11' off the ground. I had it sawed and it yielded up to 19" wide boards, few knots and some crotch wood, but most of the crotch has bark included. >( In the middle of the tree it had been shot and nailed with big spikes on one side. >( I knew where the spikes were and avoided using lumber from near them. Resawed some door parts and split lengthwise, perfectly, 3 roofing nails, destroying the resaw blade. >(

Part 2 Band saw is vertically challenged

I used most of the cherry tree building a chest of drawers for son in law. I had one 10/4 plank left with crotch wood at one end. It looked like I could just get two door panels out of the crotch for the corner cupboard lower doors. Changed plans to narrow the stiles, thereby increasing required panel width from 13 1/4" to 13 5/8.



Began working on the crotch end. Discovered a bad spot, circled in picture. Thought it would plane out. Didn't. Rifle bullet hole almost through the wood, 10' above ground!. >( But I could lower the place where I would saw out the door panel so all is well.



Began preparing piece for resaw. Discovered band saw vertical capacity is 13 3/8". >( In only an hour I was able to resaw the two panels, the hand tool way. :)

Part 3 The end



Here I am sliding the door frames over the panel stock to get the most attractive presentation. The #6 shotgun shot that showed up is off to the edge where I can live with it. I think it will all work out.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#2

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

DocJim

Nice work.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#3

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

david weaver

It may be worth your trouble to build a frame saw if you're going to do this in the future. You can steer such a saw easily, and that cut would take about 20 minutes and tired triceps rather than sore hands. It's more like working an exercise machine and less like banging the handsaw handle into the wood.

I know you're aware of the saws already out there. I chose to make one cheaply from raw bits and file teeth into it instead. The only real problem with such a saw is that you may not get to use it as often as you'd like.


I no longer have a bandsaw, but I had an inexpensive (Jet JWBS-18x) saw that wasn't that good, anyway. It wouldn't have had the resaw height for a guitar blank, and I wouldn't have risked one on it, anyway. There's no wander with the hand resaw.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#4

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

Barry Irby

It would have never occurred to me to resaw that with a handsaw. Did you at least rip it from both edges with your tablesaw to reduce the cut to about 6" or 7"?

I would have taken it to somebody with a bandsaw mill and had them resaw it.

Nice job, you have me going Hmmm?

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#5

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

E Phillip Smith

That's less time than it would have taken you to drive to my house and resaw on the BIG bandsaw.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#6

frame saw teeth

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have contemplated building a frame saw several times. But then I meet the need some other way and never get around to it. One of the obstacles is the blade. I checked and Lowes does not stock frame saw blades. >( I'll bet the blade used on WoodMisers would be suitable in terms of cutting well, but maybe too narrow? What about teeth? Do they cut on both strokes, I would think? How filed.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#7

Re: frame saw teeth

Rum

Blackburn has a bit of a filing guide..

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-blade/instructions/roubo-sharp-instructions-use.pdf

Their already stamped but not sharpened blade isn't a horrible deal either and probably pays for the file wear compared to doing it from scratch.

I'm also wondering if a bit deeper/rounder gullets akin to the old pit saws might also be beneficial for clearing swarf. I believe Leonard Lees book on sharpening discusses those somewhat.

Something that's been on the list for a couple of years but never got done either...

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#8

Re: frame saw teeth

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I'm also wondering if a bit deeper/rounder gullets akin to the old pit saws might also be beneficial for clearing swarf

that was the problem with the hand saw. Kerf kept getting clogged with dust.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#9

Filed rip, 2 1/3 per inch

david weaver

I purchased a coil of 4 inch tall .042" spring temper 1095 and at the same time, found a box of 10 US made nicholson "Extra heavy" taper 8" files and filed teeth into the blade. It took about two hours. I don't anticipate anyone else would do that.

My file size dictated a tooth size of about 2 1/3 teeth per inch. I wasn't really shooting for anything other than as big as I could justify with the file, and not absurd - something that would have at least 6 teeth in any cut where I'd use the saw.

Perhaps out of coincidence (not sure if this has always been the case), Blackburn's got an identical blade and the tooth count is the same. I did talk to Isaac around the same time he started offering stuff, but I'm sure he's got a machine that cuts teeth because he sells a toothed section of the same stuff for $70, which is what a normal person would do (I didn't save much cutting the teeth on my own, but it's what i like to do - make the tools).

I made a thinner blade before the one this size and it was more like 2" and .03" 1095. It didn't work well, though it would be OK for a smaller saw. I wanted to be able to resaw things up to about 16-20", so smaller is out of the question. the problem with a smaller blade is that the stability in the cut for a one-person saw (with the weight of the frame bearing down) relies on a fairly tall and stiff blade.

I had a bandsaw when I built it. When I got it finished, I realized that even if I was cutting something 10" and 2 feet long, I would prefer the frame saw because the result is more predictable than I could get out of a $1,200 bandsaw. if i had to saw 20 linear feet a day, I'd have bought a better saw.

I can't make the claim that everyone should have one, but if you venture to cut a panel like you cut there a couple of times a year, it's something you'd love to use.

Teeth are pretty close to zero rake, but that kind of thing is easy to change. The wood in the picture is sinker sitka, and it's old and extremely dense (similar to cherry). I knew that when I bought it. The early wood is hard and grippy, but sawing in cherry or anything else that doesn't have hard earlywood is smooth sailing.

If you could find a 2 tpi bandsaw blade section that's 4" tall and reasonable thickness (4 hundredths or so) on the spine with hook teeth, it would work very well. I hate to admit it, but the clearance of the hook design is probably faster cutting than any hand-cut teeth, and on one of my smaller turning saws, I put a cheap section of 3 tpi (thin 3/8") blade and other than being rough cutting, it's a treat to cut things out like guitar bodies and rough necks out of neck blanks.

The little bits about blade height and thickness are important, though, for saw function, so don't waste time if you have a 1 1/2" resaw blade laying around - it won't be steerable and would require two people on the saw.

(it took one cut to learn to steer this saw - that's an obvious concern working alone. I take 25 strokes, each offers quite a bit of resistance, so taking a break each 25 to look at the far side of the cut is welcome - I step past the billet, look at the back side of the cut, and make a minor adjustment on the next 25 strokes. Rinse and repeat. thinner stock like cabinet sticking or anything of that sort (like 5" or below), I use a large hand rip saw - you and others would have no problem with that on a bandsaw, anyway. It's the big stuff where this saw separates itself. I've not had thickness variation of more than a 16th with this saw on my last few cuts. I leave a little margin, anyway, in case the blank moves after I resaw it.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#10

Re: frame saw teeth

david weaver

You can see below the blank that I was sawing (which was something like 14-15") that the dust falls neatly down out of the frame.

The clearing issue you're mentioning is one of the reasons I built the saw (other than really having no other way to resaw large stuff, and my planer won't handle this width (I wouldn't choose to waste something like the sitka offcut from this billet - it's usable for a parlor guitar top).

I think Rum is right about the economy. I blew through 2 1/2 uncommon nicholson files to put teeth in this blade (and the same in the first errant blade, but I've kept the error blade in case I get the urge to make a smaller lighter saw). that's about $7.50 in files at what they cost me, but they are worth a lot more - better to let isaac's toothing machine cut the teeth. I enjoy the filing, but few will. I wanted to learn how files cut as they're dull, and how much you could lean on a larger heavier file (turns out, quite a bit) to keep it cutting as it dulled.

Part of the coil used plus files made the cost of my blade about $40.

Still, very comfortable to use, very good functioning and the exercise level is like a brisk walk up a slight grade. It's something I need, anyway. No fighting or jamming of the saw, and a consideration I'd made years ago (eventually buying a high capacity bandsaw from europe for a high price to use very intermittently in the first place) is now gone.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#11

Free to a good home....

Barry Irby

I have a Hitachi 967701 3-Inch Bandsaw Blade, used. I bought a replacement.

Look it up on Amazon or Google.

It might make a good frame saw blade. Or not. The teeth are about 1" spacing and every other one has a Stellite tip. (Cobalt, think carbide) It is 110" long, If anyone is interested in a piece of it, let me know. I will cut it. One of two of the teeth are broken/missing.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#12

That's an interesting proposition...

david weaver

..the tooth spacing would work well with wide wood, and the size would probably work fine with a 3 foot saw (which wouldn't have as much weight as a 4 footer, which really relies on a big thick tall blade).

hitachi literature says the kerf size is .055. If the plate behind the teeth is in the neighborhood of .035 or so, it would be good for a three foot saw.

No idea how much of a man someone would need to be with teeth that far apart, though. Cuts can always be started with another saw to get a groove for it to ride in, and teeth on the bandsaw can be eased with a diamond card if they're too aggressive.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#13

Re: Free to a good home....

david weaver

By the way, if nobody else takes it, I'd be glad to pay shipping plus a little for your trouble, but I have a big one and a little one that i hand cut already and don't want to squeeze someone out of the action in terms of experimenting.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#14

Re: Free to a good home....

Barry Irby

The plate seems very thin to me. I will measure it when I get home. I will cut it up and send it or send it to one person in one piece. The box the new one came in got mailed out with something else in it.

I looked at the information on the Amazon site but did not see the thickness on the plate.

Let me know if anybody is interested.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#15

Re: frame saw teeth

Rum

Yeah as I recall, the pit saws were mostly a simple rip filing albeit with rather larger than usual teeth - maybe 1tpi or so.. its been a long time.. I remember the plate being a smidge thicker than the 8-9' crosscut saws we had as well, sorry I don't remember it all well enough to quantify further. You could certainly get away with a somewhat thinner plate with a frame saw anyway though as its under tension. I don't recall there being a high degree of refinement around the gullet shaping, the one saw I recall there may still have been evidence of the gullets having been stamped out. I suspect you could add the necessary clearance to an already stamped plate with a couple of relatively cheap chainsaw files for the initial shaping without it taking more than a couple of hours. I'd also be tempted to not bother unless it proved a problem as well :)

This is a pretty good shot of how I recall the teeth, although the filer here put substantially more fleam on them than my recollection. Seems like that might induce some wander.

https://www.britanniaminemuseum.ca/blogs/news/guest-blog-the-last-filer

Apparently the files are still sold, kind of amazing. Probably a bit large for the shop sized frame saw.

https://www.gardex.in/products/steel-files/saw/pit-saw/

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#16

Re: frame saw teeth

David Weaver

Those files look a bit small for a pit saw (The largest being 8"), but teeth could easily be maintained in two parts on a saw that large (using a heavy file to grind most of the tooth off and then maintaining geometry at the tip. That would allow refiling without complete tooth refiling.

As far as the files still being offered, there are remote parts of the world where pitsaws are still used for lumber. Not like phillipines remote, but like mountain remote.

I looked up pit saws on youtube a couple of years ago (hoping to see them in use - really at the time looking for a one man solution for sawing logs by hand), and somehow ended up in foreign videos with unintelligible non-standard alphabet text. Google translation of the comments led me to the comments above. Not sure where the saws come from, but I'd bet they're vintage from the western world.

Still seem them from time to time in auctions or listings for high 3 figures. Never temped to buy one since it takes two people to work one and a pit or a pedestal. I did buy a maebiki, though, once I found proxy auctions (they're cheap in japan, only the magic of ebay flippers makes them $300. I found a great big one sans handle with all of its teeth in great shape for $75.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#17

.056

david weaver

The listings refer to the gauge as .056 and the kerf as .051. Strange number combination.

If the spine is thin, the saw can be lighter (if used as a frame saw blade). Weight is an asset on a wide board, though.

What side of the country are you on?

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#18

Re: .023 from another listing..

david weaver

..the actual thickness of the band plate is .023". A bit too thin for a frame saw, but still might work under the right level of tension.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#19

Re: frame saw teeth

Rum

My dad still has a pit saw in the barn somewhere, I know he used it to cut some bobsled runners 4 or 5 years ago (basically cut a properly curved tree in half to get one runner from each side, plus a bunch of axe and drawknife work to square them up for final shaping). I'm pretty sure it was made sometime in the teens to twenties based on what I know of where it came from.

The one time I helped him cut something with it we just set up a couple of boards across a small square pen (essentially and outdoor tie stall) and then nailed some cross pieces onto those and set the log on top of that asembly (looked kind of like a sparse ladder with the log set on top). Not strictly the most stable thing but got the job done.

So they're still used around here.. just not very often lol. The last few times I've had to split logs it was either sledge and wedge or chainsaw depending on the wood/size/useage. Either of which was a lot easier than the old pit saw.

I've never actually seen one of the "proper" files in person. I know we touched the teeth up with a regular mill file a couple of times. I don't think you need to gumm out the gullets all the time, just if they're getting to shallow - a large round file would probably be actually easier to use but less convenient if you're trying to keep the tooling amount down. An 8" mill file was plenty big for fouching up the tooth faces.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#20

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

William Duffield

When I needed to resaw a 15" wide block of mahogany for a guitar body, I saved a lot of effort by ripping from both edges as deep as I could with my table saw, and then finishing with a hand saw. Even though the table saw removed less than half of the wood, it saved more than half the time, since the hand saw was not optimally toothed for a board that wide.

BTW, I used the thin offcut to make figure matched access covers for three electronics bays in the back of the guitar.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#21

Re: Free to a good home....

William Duffield

If it's not all spoken for, I could use 28" of it for my frame saw.

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_416.shtml

This is an article on how I built it, for those who would like to build one but don't want the expense of the really fine hardware that Isaac Smith makes.

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-kit/index.html

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#22

Re: Free to a good home....

Barry Irby

William, I will be happy to send it to you.

Do you want me to cut it a little long or 28" actual? Or do you want the whole thing?

I tried to measure the thickness of the plate, and got .025" but I am not sure of that.

Let me know, either here or on my e-mail.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#23

Re: Free to a good home....

William Duffield

I built the saw to hold a 700 mm German Putsch blade, which is very close to 27-1/2 inches.

My original blade was etched with a dog and doghouse logo, which may explain the similarity to the English word "pooch". I don't think they make that product anymore. I can't find the logo on the internet. Dieter Schmidt now sells their frame saw frames with Japanese blades.

Coincidentally, one could get exactly 4 frame saw blades that long from your 110" resaw blade. But I only think I need one, and for that matter may find that it is totally inappropriate for use as a framesaw, but I'm willing to experiment and report back. So, if it is easy enough, you can cut me one piece to a finished size of 27-1/2 inches. If someone else wants to experiment with a longer blade, it will be available to them. A much longer two person framesaw might work better with the 1 per inch tooth count.

I don't need the whole resaw blade, and it would probably be more expensive and much more complicated for you to ship. Let me know what I can pay you for shipping and handling, or if the Loxahatchee Toolworks can repay you in some other way. I'll e-mail you my shipping addresses shortly.

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#24

Re: .023 from another listing..

Barry Irby

David, I tried to measure it with a vernier caliper and thought it was .025", so the .023" is probably correct.

I am in Chester VA, near Richmond. I will be happy to send you apiece of it. Send my your address and tell me how long to cut it.

Looks like William wants 27 1/2"

Re: Band saw is vertically challenged

#25

Re: .023 from another listing..

david weaver

thanks, Barry. I would love to have a piece 3 feet long. I'll email my address.