OT Sawmillcreek going to subscription forum

Re: I've gotten in trouble...

David Weaver

...with the moderation on every forum I've been on at one time or another, mostly because I'm arguing with someone on the forums and ...well, arguing doesn't bother me most of the time, but it does bother some other folks.

I didn't get kicked off of SMC but resigned my membership when they repeatedly mistreated George Wilson because he provided educated opinions about woodworking bloggers who talk the talk but can't walk the walk, or because he knew enough to tell folks that they had provided bad advise and it wasn't a matter of opinion. One of the rules over there basically no matter what you know, everyone is obligated to tell you that your opinion is just as important as theirs. That's absurd. My opinion is not as important or as credible as George's. If I get to the point that I think it is, I need to have my wings clipped. But it's better for advertisers to have something equivalent to a new kindergarten class at all times.

I never liked that manufacturers or makers instantly had their logins banned unless they agreed to hand money over to post. No matter what was being said or how incorrect it was, there was no ability for manufacturers to respond. Unless they paid.

I would rather see the forum sold or given to someone else who wants it to become a collection of useful knowledge and lively discussion rather than a place to farm members - the format is nice, but as it is now, if it went completely offline, I don't think it would be any loss.

The moderation here is ideal. I can get in trouble here from time to time, but I'm sure I've deserved it. The moderation over there is constantly admonishing people publicly, editing posts so that they often don't even mean the same thing they originally meant, and then complaining loudly about how difficult it is to moderate the group. All the while, meaningful content and meaningful contributors to the discussions disappear into oblivion.

Though I've browsed the hand tool topics, or at least a couple of them, here and there, I can't remember anything I've read there in the last several years that was meaningful. Which makes me think the same thing that I thought when I had my ID ghosted there - I couldn't think of a good reason to not do that. i can't think of a good reason to browse the topics over there - just looking to see if there are any slow car wrecks occurring or yet another "there's really no right answer to anything" kind of discussions isn't one.

thanks Bill - Keep on contributing!

Re: I've gotten in trouble...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

...with the moderation on every forum I've been on at one time or another, mostly because I'm arguing with someone on the forums and ...well, arguing doesn't bother me most of the time, but it does bother some other folks.

David, we have known each other a long time, and I love you like a brother, but - man - when you do get your teeth into something, you become like a bull dog. Not everyone gets your passion. Don't stop.

I didn't get kicked off of SMC but resigned my membership when they repeatedly mistreated George Wilson because he provided educated opinions about woodworking bloggers who talk the talk but can't walk the walk, or because he knew enough to tell folks that they had provided bad advise and it wasn't a matter of opinion. One of the rules over there basically no matter what you know, everyone is obligated to tell you that your opinion is just as important as theirs.

I don't quite see it that way. Yes, I agree that George was treated shabbily by some, but that was not management; that was some of the posters who were either opinionated and/or trolling. The complication is that a few of us were aware of George's health and the constant pain he has been in for years, and we have been protective. George is such a wonderful man, not just a wonderful craftsman, that we - well, I for one - wanted to strangle these fellows.

Freedom of speech has its downsides.

I never liked that manufacturers or makers instantly had their logins banned unless they agreed to hand money over to post. No matter what was being said or how incorrect it was, there was no ability for manufacturers to respond. Unless they paid.

I don't know if this is so. Perhaps someone like Rob Lee can comment. He posts there as much as here. I am not aware of any restrictions he has had to endure.

I would rather see the forum sold or given to someone else who wants it to become a collection of useful knowledge and lively discussion rather than a place to farm members - the format is nice, but as it is now, if it went completely offline, I don't think it would be any loss.

I would be saddened to see SMC close down. There are as many informative and passionate and friendly there as there are here. In my opinion, SMC joins WC as one of a very few woodworking fori that are capable of discussing the full range intelligently. I have visited many fori, and for the most part, they are held together by beginners. Beginners are important - they become the future - but the numbers of fori that cater to the middle- or advanced groups are few and far between. SMC is one of the good guys.

The moderation here is ideal. I can get in trouble here from time to time, but I'm sure I've deserved it. The moderation over there is constantly admonishing people publicly, editing posts so that they often don't even mean the same thing they originally meant, and then complaining loudly about how difficult it is to moderate the group. All the while, meaningful content and meaningful contributors to the discussions disappear into oblivion.

I agree that moderation here is good. Ellis is always fair, thoughtful and considerate. The owner of SMC has not impressed me as being flexible, and I question his breadth of knowledge as a woodworker. Ellis is way out there in this regard. Without this ability, how does one make decisions about levels of expertise?

Would someone else do a better job at running a forum? Quite likely. But would you find someone to do this as well as Ellis? Quite unlikely. Unless you want to volunteer?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: I've gotten in trouble...

david weaver

You're right, it's sticking hard to something that will get me in trouble. Part of that is unintentional, but the other part is that most people will not tell you all they know until you get them to drop their guard and get in an argument. I kind of feel like someone can show me I'm wrong when they think I'm wrong, and then I can learn from it.

As far as George goes, yes, he's physically worn out, but the bigger issue with him is also accurate information. I remember him getting in trouble because someone asked about black dye that was permanently color fast. A poster suggested trans tint (which isn't colorfast - it may in a shorter period, but george suggested lamp black or india ink or something that was actually color fast, and the the person making the first suggestion took the low road and said "that's just your opinion that trans tint isn't color fast"). George is more diplomatic than me most of the time and ultimately apologized, but I wouldn't have.

The thing that sticks out most in my mind, though, is that George is giving extremely deep advice for nothing in return. At the time he logged on to SMC, he was still working in his shop 3 or 4 hours a day doing gainful work (not hobby stuff). He has a fire for furthering craft, not furthering George, but furthering peoples' ability to do good work themselves. When Chris S. was on Roy's show and jammed saws a couple of times, George had a negative reaction to it and called him "saw jammer", which led to a lot of fans coming out of the cracks. He didn't concede anything about it, and ultimately, people from other forums were registering on SMC just to harass him, and then not ever posting again. I pointed out that much of the trouble was coming from people who didn't actually participate in the SMC forum, but Keith and others lashed out at George. In my opinion, content isn't important - suspending George was the easy answer despite all of the advice George had given.

I could've been like the people who didn't like George's advice - the first time I ever talked to George, I'd posted a saw on SMC. It was OK. I still have it and use it. It didn't look great, but it looked pretty good, and I was 75% pleased with the result "especially for my first one", giving myself a pass for not learning about what I was doing and just going head first in. George said "give me your phone number", which I'm not a fan of, and while everyone else was providing positive comments and I had no idea how to improve, George talked to me for about 20 minutes on the phone and told me everything that was wrong with the saw. I felt kind of deflated, and to be honest, I didn't want to be held to the standard that he was telling me that I should work toward.

But, I made a second saw - in fear that instead of making one a little better than the first, I'd fail to make the second one to George's standard. Then, what would I do? It was harder to do a better job, but the second saw turned out almost perfect. I don't have a picture - it's on SMC, but george was complimentary about my taking advice. And I learned a very valuable lesson. That I can try to do something well in all aspects and it will be more rewarding in many ways than just letting myself off the hook.

Nobody else would've taken the time. What did George get out of that? Nothing other than seeing someone else improve what they make (actually, every single thing I've made has been improved because of that). Each time I have trouble with lines, I send George a picture and call - I don't have to do it as often as i used to, but his advice is precise and accurate, every time. For nothing in return. It's never about how I do something, what tools I use, what personality I follow - it's the standard to work to (or at least try) and then meet the standard.

I know about charisma from dealing with salespeople in my day job. Chris has a lot of charisma and when he didn't like what George said about him, he vented about the forums and out came all of his followers. None of the interested in improving anyones' work. It was eye opening.

As to the posting ability of owners or executives in various companies, I wouldn't want to put Rob in the position of responding to that. I had a couple of execs in different non-advertisers send me PMs when I was posting over there saying "what's being said isn't true, can you tell everyone ____". I vetted what they were saying, quizzed them a little, relayed the message a couple of times figuring that they didn't want to post because they'd be a lightning rod. I asked one of them one day "why don't you go post it instead of me relaying it?", and the response was that when they registered, their ID was restricted from posting without advertising. I thought they were fibbing, because that didn't happen to me, and unless someones' last name matches the company they're working for, how would Keith know? I don't know how he knows.

I later saw him refer to the environment there as "non-competitive advertising environment" when someone else asked why non-advertisers can't post and defend themselves. Keith basically said that when someone pays to advertise, they're paying for a non-competitive environment to operate in on the forum. Keeping non-advertisers from posting may be done to prevent them from getting free advertising, but it also hamstrings them from responding to or correcting things that are outright false.

As columbo would say - one more thing. When I signed up for that forum and eventually became a contributor, it was not clear that the forum is a for-profit entity. The .org used to be associated with not-for-profit in the US, so I made contributions to the forum figuring that it was. I believe, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, the forum operates under an exemption that allows for-profit informational sites and forums to use the .org suffix on their address. Money for the forum goes to Keith's sign business. I never felt like disclosure was very good there, especially with all of the badgering members and some of the signatures with "without your help, the creek will disappear". It's a principle thing, again, not a nominal issue. I can't support it.

You cannot ask for clarification over there or you get a "woe is me" response along the lines of "I don't know why we keep running this forum, you people don't know how much we do and it's not worth my time".

I think the world of Ellis and Bill, I'm sure I've been in their crosshairs and left in a huff before, but this is the only forum I come back to regularly. The content here is top priority, at least it seems so to me.

I wish I could get George to post here, but he says he's too old and can't follow the format easily. He's laid up with two replaced knees right now, and i'm sure he would enjoy discussion of things that he's still got a lot of fire for. I wish I lived closer to him - maybe he wouldn't if I showed up every couple of weeks!

Re: I've gotten in trouble...

John in NM

That is a great story about George helping you with your second saw, he sounds like a great guy if one is not 24 years old and too insecure to listen to advice from those who've made most of the mistakes already.

Goodwill is too rare to burn, but a lot of forum owners seem to do it anyway, and a rare few do not.

Makes me wonder what people say about WC on other forums, but I would have to read other forums to find out so I'll never know I would bet that we don't elicit much comment, as the hands off approach around here keeps drama to a minimum.

Re: "who?"

david weaver

"who?"

"what forum?" is probably the answer.

Years ago when I first found this forum, there was a gigantic string from Larry Williams (some may remember todd hughes, larry and warren's long threads) and I think things like that will often scare away newbies.

I have heard once or twice someone mention threads like that and insist that this is a forum where people answer questions about angels dancing on heads of pins or whatever that saying is.

Re: "who?"

Frank D. in Montreal

"Years ago when I first found this forum, there was a gigantic string from Larry Williams (some may remember todd hughes, larry and warren's long threads) and I think things like that will often scare away newbies."

I've learned so much from this forum, way more than on all other forums combined. Just the other day I was wondering what Todd Hughes is up to...everytime someone asks me what something is worth I think of Todd (what someone is willing pay for it). The one thing that has always fascinated me with WC is the incredible knowledge and depth that has always come from relatively few number of posters (unlike other forums where you have to wade through dozens of useless posts to read something OK). I'm not sure that has scared beginners away, at least not the ones who wanted to learn. I think that the discussion was flying so high that for most of us (certainly speaking for myself) the best way to participate in what was going on was to read the posts. I was still there, even if I wasn't posting much. Almost twenty years later I still come back.

Re: just looking to be entertained...

david weaver

..I think folks like Todd and others did a good job of scaring away people who just wanted to be entertained. What's left is people who don't seem to be wrapped up in believing the work should be easy or that there is a secret trick or 5 that someone is holding from them.

I used to get upset when Todd would let the air out of some newbie's tires. If you paid $45 for a stanley plane, Todd would tell you that a collector wouldn't touch it for $2.

If you paid $20, Todd would tell you "they saw you coming as soon as you opened the door!".

After a while, it was worth a chuckle. When he was deflating someone at one point, deriding people paying $90 for an LN plan hammer (something even I didn't buy), I said, "you just have to go sticking your expert ____ in everything, ruining everyones' day, don't you?"

He responded by sending me a nicely made brass hammer with an anatomically correct handle on it

When I had kids, my wife told me it had to go, so I sent it to someone in Chicago to keep in a pool of unique tools at a woodworking club. Too bad it was profane, because it was really nicely made otherwise.