Dye Application?.

The fine line between attractive and gaudy

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

A table top is a lot of acreage. The appearance of this much surface is a different situation than using curly wood as a supplement to other wood in a piece of furniture. With this much surface I would be worrying about toning down the curly figure effect, not enhancing it. Some of the finishing advice you have received will certainly strongly enhance the effect.

I regard maple as the most difficult wood that I finish. Finishing curly maple involves balancing the amount of contrast, and managing yellow and orange from the dye, finish and aged wood. I have seen more curly maple that wound up unattractive than attractive. A risk is to over enhance the effect of curly wood and tip into gaudy, and/or wind up too yellow or too orange, depending on the dye used.

My artist furniture consultant preaches "less is more" and this philosophy certainly applies to using highly figured wood for its effect on appearance in furniture.

For example

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Shown is a door panel in crotch mahogany. I wash coated the wood before dye stain to lessen the amount of dye the porous parts of the panel would absorb and thereby lessen the contrast. The result is a calmer appearance, to use a Krenov descriptor.

Re: The fine line between attractive and gaudy

Lee Buck

Recently I finished a two tiered coffee table made with curly maple. The figured maple was chosen because I wanted some pop but I realized that restraint was desirable. I used medium brown TransTint and ArmRSeal satin topcoat. I like the piece but any more pop would be too much and less than I got might be better. I ragged on the finish as I don't have spray equipment. In my opinion the finish on this smaller table would be too gaudy on a larger piece. I sometimes make small turned trays of birdseye maple and dye with black, red and yellow. I like them but would not want that much color on the coffee table. Nor would I want the figure of the coffee table on a dining table. I expect if you use the finish you have proposed and take Bill's advice to favor the subtle side you will have a pleasing piece.

Re: The fine line between attractive and gaudy

Tom Norton

Thank you for your replies! They are appreciated.

But I could really use some advice regsrding my original question.

Thanks!

Does 'wash coat' imply 1# shellac?

Re: Dye Application?.

David Yoho

A professional finisher I know advocates spraying on a dye to a surface such as yours. However, I wonder if the three coats you mentioned in your other post will be too much. Anyway, spraying will prevent the overlapping marks between areas drying and still wet during application.

Re: Does 'wash coat' imply 1# shellac?

Tom Norton

Yes,a 1# cut.

Re: Dye Application?.

GolfSteve in Calgary

Hi Tom.

For a large surface I would spray to avoid witness lines. But don't spray heavy or wipe off. Spray a normal coat. See if you like it. Spray some more if you want more. Sand back if you want to highlight the dye soaked in the curl, and possible spray dye again after sanding to even out the difference between porous curly areas and the harder non-porous areas.

Spray a few top coats, and gently sand back. The last thing you want to do now is sand through your top coat and get into the dyed wood surface.

My dye preference is a bit different in that I usually spray tinted shellac and put my colour into the topcoat rather than soaking it into the wood.

Re: Dye Application?.

Tony - Memphis

I don't own any spray equipment, but that is a very large surface. I have seen somebody apply stain with a spray bottle. I'd be inclined to use a sprayer if I had one. I have had good luck with rags and sponge brushes for smaller items. Hell, for something THAT big, you cold employ a mop! Ha!

I hope you post pics. Its already beautiful in my mind!

Re: Dye Application?.

Tom Norton

David, the solution,a bit on the weak side, took 3 applications to get the color. I am sneaking up on it!

Yes...

John in NM

Try a spray bottle if you don't have a pneumatic sprayer.

Failing that, I would try one of those foam mini paint rollers. I've used them for glue application, but never stain/dye. Might be as hard to do evenly as with a brush, but worth a shot.

You could also keep a dry brush or two on hand regardless of how you apply and use it to feather out any puddled or otherwise too heavy areas.

OK, answer....Neither.. and  unsolicited advice

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

What is to be avoided is the discouragement of a large failure that could lead to abandoning woodworking. Walk before attempting to run. I think the project you chose is more akin to running hurdles.

I have been waiting for someone else to bring up what seems apparent. From the nature of your questions you are over your head on this project. This statement won't earn me any additional Facebook Friends, but it may eventually get you a table you can be proud of when you have acquired the skills to build it.

Curly maple is the most difficult wood I have encountered to finish properly. It is the most difficult wood to work that I have encountered (I don't work foreign woods). I would find executing a curly maple table of the size you describe challenging. If you ask whether you should flood on a dye stain with a spray gun you are a few hours short of experience with dye stains than you need to be, and you are not going to get that experience asking questions on WC, nor trolling the Internet. From the nature of your questions I doubt you will be able to use the advice you are seeking without gaining experience before hand coupled with considerable practice.

When you ask how to do XXXX and get an answer, the answer is coming from someone that probably has a great deal of experience. They will leave out a myriad of details they assume someone knows or even that they forgot were critical. The inexperienced person will not know what additional they need to know until they try to follow this advice. How to apply dye stain is a chapter in a book for someone that knows nothing about dye staining, not three lines in an Internet post.

Get out in the shop with test pieces of this wood and see how difficult it is to get the surface prepped properly to avoid sanding scratches and torn grain and staining uninfluenced by surface preparation deficiencies.

Then experiment with stain color application until you can add the depth of color you want and it has some hope of going on uniformly across this huge expanse of surface. Are you experienced with a spray gun? If not, that is a weeks worth of practice before considering this application route.

Table joinery hasn't come up. A table has long legs that require a table to resist racking forces. While the joints in a typical table are not difficult to learn to make, they need to be made well to last. The table needs to be sized so that people can set efficiently around it and the aprons will accommodate chairs and knees.

Not far off Tony

Dick Coers

When I was in the furniture business, and had multiple sheets of plywood to finish, I used a pad painter. Foam backed, short nap. You could do a 1/2 sheet with one dip in the stain, and get the product into the pores of the wood. No overspray, no atomized solvent based stain in the air that required a mask. Super fast and easy. Just throw the pad away after use. Bought the pads by the case. I'd suggest the same for flooding the dye on a tabletop.

Re: There you go!

David Yoho

I was wondering how strong a mixture you were using. Based on your reply you should be ok. I have a sample still sitting on my bench of curly maple with the exact dye you chose. Mine was mixed on the light side but maybe darker than yours will be. I tested to see how the curl would look with a coat of the dye, sanded off, and followed by Arm R Seal. It was exactly what I wanted for a drawer front I was making.

That said, don't plan to apply your sprayed coats so heavy there's excess on the surface. Just go for an even coat each time. I'm not sure how much the BLO will add that the clear coat of Arm R Seal won't but that's up to you.

Also, on another note, I believe you mentioned satin. If this is right and you plan to apply more than a single coat, which I would assume so, then you won't get as clear a look with multiple coats of satin. It's always better to start with a coat of clear gloss and follow with two final coats of satin. If you plan on four coats, make the first two gloss.

Re: There you go!

Tom Norton

David, I think I will go with a semi-gloss General Finishes High Performance. I was thinking of Endura var but it is not compatible with dewaxed shellac. I had thought of Arm R Seal but Iwas concerned that adding that amber might not be to my liking as the maple ages.

Question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Are you applying dye stain or pigment stain with this pad ?

I have often wondered with a dye stain what the result would be to prewet (water or solvent) the wood before application to solve the wet edge challenge.

I spray it so I never had to learn to put it on a way that required skill and practice. Dilution and building to the required depth with multiple passes was a more or less foolproof approach.

Re: Dye Application?.

Don Stephan

Regardless of the selected application method, I would first practice on a sheet of sanded plywood the same size with a second pair of hands for both the practice and the final. Maybe two second pair of hands. Unless you are confident you can spray and won't have to do any wiping.

Not necessarily

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

A wash coat is something to partially block absorption of what follows. It is defined by what it does, not by some fixed amount of stuff gleaned from a UTube video on the topic.

I prefer to speak in % solids instead of the arcane pounds of shellac in a gallon. A wash coat is in general terms some % solids of something that gives the desired result. It might be dilute glue, diluted lacquer, dilute varnish or shellac in the 5-10% solids range. One diddles with concentration to get the desired result.

In the case shown I don't remember what I used but it was likely shellac in the 5-10% solids range. A reasonable place to start is about 10% solids (about 1 part of what got bought and 3 parts solvent)

Less amber than you think

David Yoho

Like I said in another response in one of your posts, one of the reasons I switched to Arm R Seal from Waterlox is because it doesn't seem to add much amber to the results.

I have a maple top on our kitchen table that's two years old now and still looks as clear as when I completed it. That's not to say it won't turn with more age but with Waterlox it would already show the amber hue.

I recently finished some maple and cherry pieces. Two got Waterlox and one got Arm R Seal. The two looked amber instantly. The one came out just as clear as if water were used. Big difference.

Should have added...

David Yoho

I forgot to mention the maple was not stained or dyed. Just a clear top coat used.

Re: Should have added...

Tom Norton

David, thanks for this info. I knew that Waterlox has a pronouced amber, I used it on my workbench years ago, but interesting to hear the side by side comparison.

How does one measure/index % solids?

Chuck Nickerson

You might mock the idea of 1# cut, but it is something we can 'get to' when starting with a product available to the consumer.

A different answer to your original question.

Chuck Nickerson

This scenario is a great reason to finish both sides of your table top; the bottom is large-surface practice. As Bill said above, spraying is an acquired skill so try the rag approach. One advantage of dyes is if they're mixed into a carrier only (water or alcohol) you can keep moving the color to smooth it out. It's a skill but much simpler to acquire than spraying, at least for me.

Re: Dye Application?.

Sgian Dubh

I'm struggling to understand a bit that some contributors seem to perceive a possible difficulty getting dye or stain on quickly and evenly on a small surface, only 80" X 30". I could get both top, bottom and all edges flooded in either colourant (dye or stain) in about 90 to 120 seconds using a brush.

The tools and method are as follows:

*. painter's or any other big plastic bucket

*. 6" or wider paint brush (the type used to paint internal house walls)

*. plenty of colourant (dye or stain)

*. decent supply of dry cotton rags

*. 4 times 1-3/4" to 2-1/2" long screws and means to insert and remove them

*. nitrile gloves

6. helper

*. clean flat surface

Method.

*. Flip panel bottom side up.

*. Insert four screws into the bottom near each corner so the holes are hidden when attached to whatever framing is underneath, or be prepared to put in a bit of filler later.

*. Mix up colourant in the bucket - a pint or two.

*. Load brush, or pour plenty of colourant onto the panel's surface (screws facing up). Slosh this about on the surface to get a good cover with the brush (~30 seconds work).

*. With helper, flip the panel over to rest on the screw heads.

*. Repeat application of colourant on top surface and slop it over ends and sides (30 - 60 seconds).

*. Let the colourant rest for a minute or two.

*. Lift up one edge, and with dry rags wipe underside in direction of grain. Sit back down on screws, lift other edge if required, and do a bit more wiping with dry rags.

*. Sit the panel back down on the screw heads, and with dry or at most colourant damp rags, wipe down the show surface and edges, also reach under the edges to wipe as much of the bottom side as can be reached.

*. Leave to dry.

I'd expect to achieve all this in about five to ten minutes with a helper, all depending on how long I want to leave the colourant to work its way into the wood fibres. This might mean brushing a bit more colourant on to the surface, particularly the show surface if any patches appear to be getting a bit dry - basically just keeping the whole surface nicely damp being the goal prior to wiping off with dry rags.

As to how attractive or successful the end result would be in applying the dye or stain to a highly figured maple panel is a different story. But getting the colourant on (spirit, oil or water solvent type) quickly, evenly, without tide marks, and wiped down after application with simple hand tools certainly isn't an issue on a small panel. Slainte.