New favoarable data on LED vs fluorescent

A couple issues...

Jason Roehl in Lafayette, IN

I get where your contact is coming from regarding LED fixtures that are designed as LED from the ground up rather than replacement lamps. The problem with that is in commercial settings where one might have a dozen fixtures in a room (or many more). He said they're already in Generation 8 of LED fixtures, so when one fixture fails (and one/some will), will an identical replacement be available? With replacement bulbs, this is not a problem as one with the same color temp and similar CRI would be easy to find.

Second, LED lamps and fixtures do put out heat, just not where the light is--the heat comes from the internal circuitry, and can be a problem if not properly accounted for. Some lamps are not rated for enclosed fixtures. Most quality lamps and fixtures will have some form of heat sink to deal with the heat.

Jason

Re: A couple issues...

Barry Irby

I put Halogen down lights in the vallance above my son's kitchen cabinets. About 2 or 3" above the edges of the doors when they are open. They left a door open under one of them. I wondered how hot it was and touched the top edge of the door. OUCH! Left too long it would burn the house down. A poor choice for that location. Fry your ear, how about fry your whole house?

I picked up two LED panels at a freight auction. They are made to go into a ceiling grid. 2' by 4' and less than 1/2" thick except the connector box add about 1 1/2" in an area smaller than an index card. Oddly, I find no rating in lumens or CRI or color. When lit they produce a bright even surface. My point is it would be very difficult to do that with an y other type. How about a ceiling that would be 100% lit? Not very intense, but they at least work.

Thank you Bill for your continuing research. Do check the output and the price. The electrical supply house I checked with was several times the price of Costco. Quality verses cost is a real thing.

some cosiderations

John K Jordan

>>>I stopped by a lighting store today to discuss lighting.

I agree with much of what you report although I am naturally skeptical about getting information from the person selling the item.

What Jason said about the heat is important to me. Some LED elements (the chips) emit a lot of heat. The potential problem of having to replace the entire fixture when the LEDs or electronics fail remains a strong negative point with me. Yes, they advertise tens of thousands of hour life but I haven't seen a fixture or bulb warranty that honors. After sending several fixtures to the landfill over the years I hesitate to buy fixtures with non-replaceable light elements.

Some fixtures put out great light but have poor heat sinks and both the lifetime and the light output can suffer over time. One study (and lawsuit) found the light output decreased by a large percentage after a relatively short time.

When I buy an LED fixture I look at the construction - the best I found bonded the LED elements to a heavy aluminum strip which conducted heat to the back and outside the fixture.

An evaluation of light fixtures should include light meter readings over time taken at a fixed distance, carefully collimated or with no other light in the room.

Task lighting: I switched from incandescent/halogen bulbs to LED and CFL long ago. I like a mix of light at the lathe to improve 3D perception of complex curve. One thing to check for - I installed one LED bulb that radiated enough noisy EMI to make one of my digital calipers to go wonky and randomly change the reading.

JKJ

Why do we fret over the cost of a light?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"Quality verses cost is a real thing." For bench and tool lighting should it be?

When a chisel is needed for chopping dovetails do you go to Home Depot or Harbor Freight to find the cheapest chisel that can be found? No. We buy the quality we need, or we don't buy. I haven't heard lately what a great deal they got on a chisel at Cosco. A chisel with crappy steel or ergonomics, or a machine built so cheaply that it won't last or isn't functional for the need is avoided.

What "tool" in the shop is used every time you are in the shop? Lights. If you need 200 foot candles on the bench to accurately cut dovetails does it make sense to save $30 on the light that could be pleasant to work under and provide the visibility needed? Does it make sense to hang a $20 fixture over a SawStop and struggle to see pencil lines? By in large we buy professional quality tools. It makes sense to buy professional quality light for them. Relative to all the other tools we buy lights are the cheapest.

I think people often buy cheap lights because they don't know there is a difference. The difference will be color, CRI and possibly how much of the light generated gets directed to the place it is needed. In some cases these differences might not be a meaningful. In other cases they are. The buyer should take the time to make a light decision that meets the need, not that is cheapest.

Example of light economics. A cheap shop fluorescent or LED is $25. A 4-lamp T5HO is $100. Two T5HO fixtures replaced 8 cheap fluorescent fixtures over my bench with the result of 50% more light on the bench. Light quality did not improve because I already had high quality lamps in the fluorescent fixtures. Is $100 too much to pay for a shop light?

A LED fixture I looked at yesterday cost $50. It had a CRI of 90+ and was available in any color temperature. It had later generation focusing. I have yet to measure how much light it directed to a working surface under it, but presumably more than a $20 Cosco fixture. Is the difference in amount and quality of light worth $30? That is a question that should be consider before the purchase is made.

Many in these discussions reported going from ancient technology T12 fluorescent to early generation LED and reporting a big improvement. There will come a day when someone will report going from ancient technology cheap LED shop light to a quality LED fixtures and reporting the same kind of improvement.

Remember when buying light you are buying lumens and quality of lumens (CRI and Temperature). It is the cost of the amount and quality of light that is important not the cost of the fixture.

Skeptical

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"I am naturally skeptical about getting information from the person selling the item"

This is a good guideline to follow. But we all can't be experts on everything. Who to trust? A good guide is to trust those whose business depends on sale to customers that know the product. A lighting store supplying lighting specified by lighting architects for commercial application is about the best you can do.

I have been peripherally involved with architects in design of a performing arts center in Johnson City. It got my attention that every light in the design except for some specialized stage spot light will be LED. LED to meet the need is out there, just maybe not available at Cosco or Home Depot.

Re: New favoarable data on LED vs fluorescent

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

I am not an expert in lighting. But I thought I'd share about what I did with my shop. Our area power company has an ongoing program to encourage businesses (even small ones) to change out less efficient lighting for more efficient lighting. Depending on the situation, they will pay for most of the cost of lighting change as long as it meets their guidelines. Yes, you have to do the paperwork and submit for a review and approval process. But I was approved and it saved me a boatload of money.

Anyone thinking of changing the lighting systems in their shops might want to check with their local utility to see if they offer a similar program. I was happy I did!

T.

Re: Skeptical

Larry

I would like to see a Impendent study done, on the lights.

Re: Why do we fret over the cost of a light?

Barry Irby

I think it's interesting that after a hundred years light bulbs are emerging technology again.

You are correct that cost should not be a consideration. But cost is more complex than it seems at first glance. The cost per lumen at a given color and CRI is one thing. Another is the cost of conversion. What effort does it take to install the new lumens? Does the local power company help with this? Or would you rather spend your discretionary dollars on something else? Like your maybe your significant other?

Thanks to you, Bill, many of us have learned that there are generations of LED lights. I sense that you are undergoing something of a conversion yourself. What you learned at the lighting store seems to have convinced you there might be a place for some of the more advanced LEDs. A year or two ago that might not have been true. What will the ninth and tenth generations bring us?

Maybe we should sit around in our archaic shops and wait.

We should all have Sawstop TS's, of similar tech.

And did you know Aldi sells pretty good german steel chisels? For less than $20 for a set of four. I still check with them occasionally for a set.

I got some of my favorite chisels at yard sales for nearly nothing. A two-fer.

I also have a $700 Festool shop vac in spite of the fact the Rigid one I had was working fine with my Domino. I laugh at myself for buying it, apparently I NEEDED it, but I have never regretted buying it or the Domino for even a second.

So, Thanks for enlightening us. Thank you for all the work. And, how can the rest of us find some 8th generation LED's for our shops? I don't think they are labeled by generation and I am certain the local lighting shops will work really hard to sell what ever they have on the shelves.

Re: Why do we fret over the cost of a light?

TomD

My shop is 42 feet long so one fixture isn't going to do it. The other issue would be whether there will be something better coming out next week. With LEDs every week there is something better. Another issue would be whether Ebays sells the bulb or something similar for 2 bucks, this stuff is insanely cheap out of China, though possibly not an option for large fixtures.

Sawstop is the means of making a badly outdated Model-T saw safe around hot dogs.

To fret or not to fret

John K Jordan

>>>Remember when buying light you are buying lumens and quality of lumens (CRI and Temperature). It is the cost of the amount and quality of light that is important not the cost of the fixture.

I agree in part. In addition to light intensity and quality I am also buying reliability and long-term maintenance. Stories and my personal experience with fixtures dying, reports of light output slowly diminishing over time, and the inability to replace burned-out elements with a trip to Home Depot made me decide against lighting my new shop with the latest LED fixtures.

I'm as fretless as a violin about paying for lighting for my new shop. I want to see things well, especially since eyes diminish with age and I'm not getting any younger. The cost of the light fixtures is almost insignificant compared to the cost of the materials and the thousands of hours of effort to get from clearing ground to turning on the dust collector.

That, plus the lack of long-term reliability data on the new LED fixtures are the reasons that after careful consideration I paid about $90 each for 4-bulb T5 fixtures and $10 each for HO bulbs. If and when a bulb fails I can replace it in two minutes. If an electronic ballast fails I can replace it. If I'm around 20 years from now and have the need and energy to build another new shop from scratch (unlikely) I will certainly reevaluate.

JKJ

Who to trust and new vs upgrade

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Up grades: When I give part 2 of the lighting club program I am going to dwell on the difference in choices between new lighting and upgrading lighting. Upgrading might simply involve buying a quality T8 lamp or a T8 lamp and ballast. This route would be more technically sound than replacing with a cheap LED.

From what I learned at the store, for a new light source a quality LED may be the technically best choice. The fact that the new performing arts center is all LED , as well as all new commercial construction (according to store person), supports this choice.

I was told that the new Olie's store opening in Johnson City will be lit at 200 foot candles with LED lighting we could use in a shop over a bench. I could see to cut dovetails in this store.

What does not seem to be a good choice is to replace fluorescent tubes with LED "tubes" in the same fixture.

A lighting store selling for commercial installation would seem a safe bet. They won't stay in business long providing substandard goods. Manufacturer literature is another guide. I am willing to believe if the lighting store says this fixture is 4100K and 90+ CRI that it is. I can (and will next Tuesday) stick a light meter under one of these LED commercial fixtures and see if 5000 lumens from one of these fixtures delivers more light to a bench than an equivalent T8.

lamp cost

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We are getting screwed buying T5 HO at big box. I was told at lighting store these lamps are substantially cheaper. Will get a quote next Tue. Actually I will buy a spare or two if they are the $5 I was told.