Segmented Lamps

Re: Segmented Lamps

John C Lucas

Ive sold, gi en as gifts and donatrd to charities quite a few lamps.. maybe im being silly but i simply dont worry about liability. I do follow UL. Codes.

Re: Lamps & Code

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Hi Gorman,

The liability you're concerned about would be determined by compliance with the applicable Electrical Codes which are different and independent from the private testing firm known as "UL" (Underwriters Laboratories). Using UL-certified parts does not mean or insure that your product is safe or compliant with the Codes which are actual laws. You can, of course, submit a completed lamp (and proposed label) to the UL for testing and, if it asses their tests, put the "UL" certification and "listed" tag on the lamp.

If you want to be sure, you'll will need to research the actual Code, including required labeling of the product. You might be able to get a copy of the section you need from your local electrical inspector (it's a book that you'd have to buy otherwise). Ever see "maximum 60 watts" labeled on a lamp? That comes from the Code not UL. Your choice of wire size and components will determine what label you should put on the lamp so that the consumer is given guidance on what bulbs to use or not use. Just going to Walmart or the Borg and buying sockets, zip cord, and plugs will not suffice.

Good luck with your business!

selling = liability

Kneale Brownson

We sell knitted cotton baby blankets (http://www.knitknacks.com/). Cotton is the safest material you could make a baby blanket from. It remains breathable, is fire resistant, cleans easily, etc., but we have a multi-million dollar liability policy just in case. Your best practice in the production of your lamps does not protect you from what some idiot does with the product.

What Code are you referencing Mark?

Tim Greif - West of Chicago

I'm aware of the NEC requirements for lampholder ratings and pendant cord wire gauge requirements, but I've never seen any reference to maximum wattage ratings for a light fixture in the NEC. Doesn't mean it's not there, I've just never seen it. Is that the code you're referring to?

I was wondering the same...

John in NM

But I'm also not familiar enough with either NEC or IRC to say that appliance wiring is not in there somewhere.

Since appliances like lamps, blenders, TV's, etc are not part of the building, I would be pretty surprised to find them covered in a building code book. It does bring up an interesting question - what is the regulatory body (if any) governing and setting standards for the manufacture of lamps?

Re: Segmented Lamps

John in NM

I suppose if you want to play it extra safe, get a liability policy. The risks are pretty low in my completely non-professional opinion, so probably the policy would not be too horribly expensive. Maybe out of your budget still, but who knows?

I think you could probably build a safer lamp than most of the commercial (Chinese) one's I've seen lately - cheap is the name of that game and you really see it in manufacturing and assembly shortcuts. Just make sure your screw terminals are really tight, don't tin the copper wire for screw or crimp connections, and avoid having pinch points. Avoid those quick connect stab connectors like the plague.

NEC Article 400

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Specifically Article 410 dealing with "luminaires and lampholders"

Re: Segmented Lamps

Brian Holcombe

No matter the perceived level of risk, it is there. I have liability insurance and would not do business without it. I had it when I was still a hobbyist.

You cannot dream up enough scenarios to cover every base.

Pretty sure...

John in NM

That this covers the installation of fixed lamps rather than covering the standards by which these fixtures are manufactured or covering non-permanent appliances like table lamps. I believe that the OP is talking about producing something like a table lamp.

I do not have a code book handy however, just going on recollection which may well be inaccurate.

Re: Segmented Lamps

TomD

One of the main things to consider as far as I am concerned is where you stand as a target vs what you get out of your business. A retiree with a fully paid house, cars, and a huge portfolio of stocks, who does his turning as a vanity project is in a different risk reward situation, than a negative net worth crafts college graduate with 100% of his income from his craft business. A strange calm seems to come over people when they get insurance, without regard for how much litigation they are likely to need to engage in to get paid out. Some of that may be due to the fact that people are mostly familiar with regulated fields like car insurance, where the terms, at least in some jurisdictions, are set in legislation.

I'm pretty negative on insurance. Not that I wouldn't have it, and even the offer of it suggests the risks may not be that great. I just don't see the reasonably priced policies that some part time people have that cost a thousand or so a year as being intended to deal with scenario one above. One of the most often quoted reasons for having such policies in areas like bicycle frame making is the delusional idea that the few thousand that the bespoke makers toss into the pot every year is an act of responsibility relative to the possible lifetime medical and income replacement needs of a potential victim of an accident (or in this case the houseful of half burned to death victims of an electrical fire).

One thing I would look into is whether there is any real benefit to using something like a 12v and LED system, or whether the risk (if any) of the transformer catching fire outweighs that kind of approach.

As OJ Simpson has shown, the state you reside in can have an impact on the how collectible judgements are.

Re: Segmented Lamps

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

I occasionally make lighting pieces that sell in galleries. The insurance I have on my shop has a provision for covering liability of my products. But frankly, I don't worry about it. I use the highest quality parts I can find. Many times the wires are channeled inside wood parts and cannot move. However, I solder and insulate all connections. Lastly, I always use LED these days. That eliminates the heat issues inside the shades etc. Build it well, and there should be no problems!

T.

That is why LLC's were invented

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

It can be cheap to set up(depending on who does it) an LLC, the paperwork is minimal and so long as you don't load it up with assets there isn't much to sue.

Re: Segmented Lamps

Paul Leuba

The Consumer Product Safety Commission is an independent agency of the U.S. Government that is responsible for regulating the safety of consumer products. They have published hundreds of regulations governing lamps in the Federal Register, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Their website is reached at URL CPSC.GOV. A link on their home page that will take you to a public library of their regulations maintained by Cornell. A search on the term "lamps" will take you to many pages of regs governing everything from mining lamps to ship board lamps. Somewhere in that library are the federal regs governing household lamps.

Paul in Hunt Valley, MD

Re: Excellent responce LLC's is the answer

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Many small business's are protected using the LLC (limited liability corporation). Most Bar owners now use this in this area.

Essentially a lawyer draws up paperwork and registers this and lists the assets of the corporation as very minimal and/or shows the business as renting or leasing most of the materials / assets for the LLC.

Any lawsuit therefore can only take those assets shown to be "owned" by the LLC. This prevents someone from suing for your home, shop, savings, vehicles, etc.

In reality this stops the ambulance chasers from suing as the value of the suit is not worth their while.

Re: LLC's

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Gorman,

Do not rely upon legal advise from non-lawyers on a woodworking forum. Consult with an local attorney in your area with real experience in business organization to understand both your options and the responsibilities that attach to each.

BTW, I don't "chase" ambulances, but I've lost count of how many LLC's and corporations I've blown through to hold their owners personally responsible.

Good advice...

John in NM

Small corporations are not an impervious shield (I have one for other purposes) and if you've conducted your business like a sole proprietorship the courts will generally treat you as one should it ever come to that.

In the only (thankfully) civil case I've been involved with, we sued another company for breech of contract, but the American subsidiary had no money so they claimed that we were suing the American corporation rather than the Canadian parent that did have some cash. We demonstrated that they clearly had conducted business as one entity rather than two and rather than risk a judgement in our favor (as well as additional suits from other contracts they had breached) they offered a settlement which we accepted.

So get some legal advice, and have the LLC carry liability insurance if you go that way, and decide what to do. I suspect that if you had an LLC for the sole purpose of avoiding insurance coverage, and an injured party could prove that, it would not end up being much protection. Used in good faith, a small corporation can be an excellent way to protect your personal assets.

Re: Crap...here we go with sound advise. 

Re: Lamps & Code

Jason Roehl in Lafayette, IN

The NEC is only law where it is adopted by the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction). It's written, as are the IRC and IBC, by independent, private organizations. Your local Building Commission, or state has to adopt the NEC or IBC for those codes to have any force of law. And a law is only as good as those enforcing and administering it...

Jason

Re: Segmented Lamps

gorman

Thanks all for your input!

Re: Mark, I'm not painting all attorneys

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

with a broad brush, but there are a LOT of money hungry ones advertising on my cable TV right now!

I do have several friends that are lawyers (and honest ethical men), but the ones I referring to give all a bad name.

As a retired Engineer, I was exposed to the possibility of being sued during my employment. It certainly appeared to me that many lawyers were searching for the smallest issue that they could sue for and possibility get a sympathetic jury to grant them money (or get a settlement from a company to avoid a bad name).

Apparently there are lawyer's that do recommend the LLC route as I have several friends that have incorporated their small businesses to avoid at least the majority of the liability.

I certainly am not an attorney and feel certain that anyone seeking to incorporate or avoid the risk of possibility of loosing their home would seek the advice of an attorney.

By the way I did not suggest that this was a way to avoid purchasing liability insurance nor to allow anyone to produce any product that would put anyone at risk!

Not My Point

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

There is no shortage of bottom feeders in the profession. I bump into more than my share.

Not taking issue with you, Larry, but many people believe that simply forming a corporation (or LLC) will protect them from all liability. That's simply not true. There are any number of statutes that impose personal liability on the principals and officers, as will ignoring failing to do what is required to maintain the corporate form of a business. Hence my suggestion for proper legal advice from someone with experience in the given field in which the company will operate. Calling just any attorney for special legal advice is about like going to a proctologist for a sinus infection.