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Testing glue joints

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Testing glue joints

#1

Testing glue joints

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The discussion on clamps reminded me of something I recently learned about glue testing. I test my panel joints by breaking the end trimmings from panel ends. These tests provide feed back on my joints in the area where there is most likely to be weakness, ie the ends of panels.

I was recently privy to some testing by Franklin on the strength of repaired joints with Titebond, testing the strength of new glue bonded to cured glue. They recorded force to cause joint failure (psi on an Instron) as well as observation of the failed glue line. The observations were reported as a percentage failure by one of three failure modes- fracture of the wood, fracture within the adhesive, failure of the bond between wood and glue.

I thought the measure of joint strength by observation was per cent of wood failure. Not so. In this work there was no bond failure between wood and glue. But for joints that were essentially the same strength as measured by the force necessary to break the assembly there was a wide variation of what fraction of wood fractured and what fraction of glue failed. This result suggests that for maple the glue is about the same strength as the wood and that a well made joint will fracture randomly within the glue or wood when the stress is enough to break the joint.

The conclusion, at least for maple, observing per cent wood failure underestimates how strong the joint was. An equivalently strong joint may just as well have fractured mostly within the glue and have no wood failure.

Re: Testing glue joints

#2

Re: Testing glue joints

Barry Irby

I also break the end trimmings.

I wonder if Franklin has found it possible to apply enough pressure to squeeze the joint dry and have it fail for lack of glue. I doubt it's possible without crushing the wood.

Re: Testing glue joints

#3

Good post, thanks for the explanation.

Keith Newton

I've always made a habit of breaking up the end cutoffs, trying to concentrate the pressure so as to make my joints fail. There is no better quality control method than testing as I go on every project. I also do it for my veneered projects, trying to see if I can make that fail in the way I make the breaks.

If it won't break at the glue line is all I need to know.

Re: Testing glue joints

#4

Re: Testing glue joints

Bob Lang

Last time I talked to the guys at Franklin, they said that squeezing all the glue out of the joint was not possible.

Bob Lang

Re: Testing glue joints

#5

Clint Searl

Re: Testing glue joints

Clint Searl

IMO from experience and a modest understanding of physics, testing glue joints in panel constructions to the point of failure become exercises in absurdity. A panel component of a piece of furniture will never be subjected to forces sufficient to cause the joint to fail. And with reference to clamping pressures, a well mated joint needs neither copious squeeze out nor clamping pressure that bows 3/4" pipe to succeed.

Re: Testing glue joints

#6

and the reason....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Amazingly this myth persists in spite of the fact that refuting data has been provided on numerous occasions. I tried it by mashing a joint in a large machinist vice capable of applying more pressure and one would ever be able to achieve with clamps. The joint was not "starved". Franklin confirmed my observation, no doubt, with better controlled experiments.

We know from experience that adding 5% water to Titebond thins it substantially which is a nice trick when spreading a bunch on veneer. The opposite is also true as a consequence of the physics of these latex suspensions. As soon as the glue touches the wood water diffuses into the wood and the viscosity of the glue at the surface builds quickly. The challenge is to squeeze the excess glue out of the joint, with no risk of squeezing out the thin layer required to get an optimum bond. The high viscosity of the glue at the wood surface prevents this glue from moving under any pressure clamps can muster.

Re: Testing glue joints

#7

Joints don't fail?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"A panel component of a piece of furniture will never be subjected to forces sufficient to cause the joint to fail."

If this statement was true furniture factories would not need to take the precautions they take to avoid glue failure and glue companies could eliminate their technical service function. Antique repair shops would limit their services to refinishing.


Apparently you are not considering the forces that result from differential dimension changes with changes in moisture content of wood. Quite clearly they can overcome the strength of wood....which is why we strive to make joints as strong as wood and design to reduce stress on joints from this effect.

Re: Testing glue joints

#8

Clint Searl

Re: Joints don't fail?

Clint Searl

The illustration is not relevant to the topic. Let's not beat a dead horse.

Re: Testing glue joints

#9

Re: Testing glue joints

Don Stephan

The 2nd paragraph described testing of repaired joints applying fresh glue to dried glue. The following two paragraphs sound like they are discussing original, not repaired, glue joints.

Could you clarify please.

Re: Testing glue joints

#10

Re: Testing glue joints

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

conclusion is for new joints. Can't judge quality of joint by only looking at wood failure. That is to say, a joint with 30%wood failure may have about the same psi strength as one with 80% glue failure, if the glue is about the same strength as the wood it is bonding.

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