I never thought I'd do this -- compressor

compressor

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

For air nailers I like the quietness of a tiny quiet compressor. Any size will run a nailer.

For air driven random orbit sander you might need as much as 17 cfm at 90 psi supplied by a two stage at least 5 HP compressor that is very noisy and best isolated.

For spraying finish on furniture about anything other than dinky will work.

My shop has the two extremes. I used to have the middle ground before I went to ROS sander.

floor

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

As polished as you can make it if you are going to be sweeping up sawdust. After pouring seal with what ever is recommended now days. Some products must be applied soon after setting. If you want to enhance lighting paint it light color.

Re:  compressor

Barry Irby

Bigger is better.

DO NOT use hard plastic piping (PVC or CPVC). If, after it cycles a few hundred times it fails and bursts, it can spray plastic shrapnel and they can't see the shards on an X-ray. This may start an argument with the Poo-Poo crowd, but don't do it, because if I am right it's too painful to find out they are wrong. An additional threat is that if it bursts, it will burst while you are away and the compressor will run until it fails and burns the place down.

I am told there is some softer plastic that is suitable, but have not researched it.

Isolate the com[pressor for noise suppression and install one of the auto drains that dups the water out of the tank occasionally. May also be wise to set up some sort of switch that turns it off when you are not there.

While you are isolating the compressor, also isolate your DC. Not only does that reduce the noise, it also reduces the need for fancy highly effective filters. Any dust it captures is GONE. This ends the discussion about how fine a filter is good enough. If I turn the DC on and off with the tools, I don't find the heat loss to be significant.

designing and building

John K Jordan

>>>7. How many pounds and thickness for the mix? (Five inches, more? 3500? 4000? Crack prevention fiberglass? Rebar? Smooth or brushed finish?

That, and some other of your construction design questions might be best answered by hiring out the design, assuming you don't have that experience. Some architects will do small designs like this. Some contractors may have ideas about specs but who will you trust? You can hire an engineer for spot calculations, for example for beams and trusses to support the load you expect from the hoist. If the building will need permits and inspection the building and electrical inspectors will have some minimum guidelines.

I am a believer in using rebar in concrete. The thickness and design depend on what kind of load you expect (and the ground prep, etc.) For my general shop floor I used 4" thick concrete with a 2' rebar grid. I wanted the bay area floor stout enough to support my tractor and bobcat so I made it 6" thick with a 1' rebar grid, more on the edges and ramp as I deemed needed. Smooth finish everywhere except on the outside welding area, porch, and ramp.

I recommend designing a sound-insulated closet for the air compressor and the dust collector if this will be a wood shop at some point. I built a 4'x8' closet with staggered stud walls and baffled air return for the 5hp compressor and 5hp cyclone. Without this the sound can range from annoying to deafening.

Shop air is more useful when you don't have to stretch an air line across the building. I plumbed air lines through the ceiling and walls with multiple outlets inside and out, one at the lathe, one in the welding room for air tools and plasma cutter, etc.

I like to run wiring underground. My shop is 250' through the woods from the meter so this took a bit of effort with the backhoe on my tractor.

Do you plan on building this yourself? It's a LOT cheaper but a lot of work.

My shop is 24x62; I did almost everything from preparing the dirt to wiring the heat pump. I tell people I built the shop with my bare hands but I lie, I used tools! It was a full-time job for a long time (several years) and this was after months of designing and dozens of pages of drawings and revisions. It's a LOT easier to hire everything out but I'm too poor, er, cheap for that. I do have builder and architect friends and family and have done this before so critical design questions were not hard to answer.

JKJ

Cool the air *LINK*

Dustmaker Mike

I would go with a two stage if I was going to get another compressor.

The biggest problem I see wit a compressor is water in the tank and people trying to dry it out after the fact. When I move and start to set up my shop again I plan on cooling the air before it goes into the tank.

The air coming out of the compressor head is really hot, then it enters the tank to cool. This is what causes most of the moisture in the air. What I plan on doing is making a large radiator to cool it in before it enters the tank.

Take coil copper line from the compressor head and plumb it into a series of 1/2 inch copper pipe along the wall. Angle the pipe with one side lower then the other, and put a bleed off valve on it.

Run it 6 feet over then Tee it, one side to valve and the other side to 1/2 copper pipe three inches long, insert another Tee head another piece of three inch up and add another Tee continue for a about three or four feet up. Off the other leg of the Tees, use another piece of copper pipe 6 feet long into a elbow, insert a three inch of pipe and run it into another Tee. One section goes up three inches the other side goes to the other side. The last piece is to use coil copper and bring it back into the tank.

Like these pictures


Cool Me

Re: I never thought I'd do this -- compressor

Clint Searl

I had an IR 5HP 2-Stage 60Gal 150PSI in a corner of my shop. Did everything, including a reasonable amount of 100PSI blasting. Left it mounted on the delivery pallet sitting on a stable mat. Loved it

New shop

Lee Schierer in McKean, PA

Be careful loading up trusses with storage. Many truss designs are for holding up the roof and will not tolerate much weight on the members below.

Lee

ditch the trusses

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If you hire a framer that is experienced with conventional framing you can do a conventional rafter roof for the same or less than trusses. Then put bridging on the ceiling joists (which can be 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 depending on span and how stiff you want it) and deck with 1/2" plywood. Put a door in the gable for access from outside and possibly stairs or ladder inside. The result will be lots of acreage to store anything that can be carried up there. In my case it is 500 bd ft of cherry/walnut and other stuff. It becomes a dandy place to dry lumber in the summer. My span is 24' with 2 x 8's and bridging.

Re: ditch the trusses

John K Jordan

I've built both ways. I prefer trusses since around here they are cheap, go up so quickly, are consistent in dimensions and strong. I spec them with 2x6 instead of 2x4 lumber just because. Renting a crane and operator to install 30+ trusses on my shop was less than $100. If I wanted attic space I'd probably use trusses made for that, such as they used in my garage.

From other discussions, I found that trusses elsewhere can cost 2 to 3 times what we pay for them so the cost may be be an issue for some.

I do build farm buildings with 2-by rafters which gives me more options. For example, I roofed my barn with 20' 2x8s on one side for an 8' overhang at the stall entrances. Full trusses at that length would have given me logistic and transportation problems for my site or else would have to be shipped in two parts for local assembly (and additional cost).

We also use rafters on additions to our house but for another reason, to go with the timber frame architecture - we added two roofs with 4x6 rafters, one just last week.

I still recommend that without significant experience one should discuss this with an architect/engineer or an experienced trusted builder.

JKJ

you can get open span or storage trusses 

Best of both...

John in NM

Around here trusses are pretty cheap unless you compare it to wood cost alone and write off your time as a cost. If you're paying someone, trusses tend to be cheaper -- $80 to $100 per truss, delivered (we live 2 hours from the plant where I bought them, so free delivery is nothing to sneeze at).

Talk to the truss manufacturer about what you want - such as storage trusses. They should be able to build a truss that will match any other clear span method. For maximum weight bearing you can't beat internal posts or bearing walls with any clear span design.

Now you do want to find a truss supplier next to the railroad tracks - guess why

Those are the guys who will be the cheapest, you can tell by the quantity of wood they buy and how it gets delivered!

Re: I totally agree 

labor comparison

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

My hipped roof house was conventionally framed by two people in a day. Hipped roofs have way more parts than a gable roof which would have taken less than a day. The part sizes are read from a framing table, cut and easily nailed in place. The presumption is that the framer is experienced and knows how to use a framing square and skill saw. How much less labor can you imagine trusses would be, and the means to lift them, square them and nail in place? For a gable roof all the rafters are cut from one pattern rafter- 4 quick cuts per with a skill saw' plus the labor to lift up the rafter and nail it in place.

Thanks for the starting help, some choices 

Gary Smyth

I made some phone calls. Around here the fee for architect is 5% to 8 % of the cost of the job. That gets me good specs. On the other hand a general contractor is 1.5 % markup on the job which includes permits, and any sub selection. Experience on their part is the protection/ specs for additional construction later.

Since I have to do this in stages it seems to me that finding a general contractor would be the better option if he or she is willing to work over time this year. Any opinions as to select a GC?

I figure a pad, say 22 x 30 will be the first step. Rebar requirements, angel hair, smoothness will rest with whatever pro I choose, This will be followed closely by electrical for the welder, compressor, and light. There is a 100 Amp subpanel near installed last year. I’ll use 4” PVC stubbed in close to a wall to have easier access after the pad sets. Water lines at this stage might be prudent even if not connected. As suggested here I’ll plan to have the compressor on its own pad adjacent to the new pad in its own 2 x 4 padded enclosure.

I can do some labor, but for the beginning, at least, I do not have an excavator, truck, or bobcat (for base gravel/stone distribution/ compaction) so that has to be farmed out. I will ask about anchoring the slab and exposure to weather and for sure I want “J” bolts installed around the most of the perimeter for pressure treated sill plates for whatever comes next.

Around here, a slab will take 40 days before anything else will happen.

By the way, I’m told that I would need only 5 “storage” trusses to support the roof over the pad and still safely store what I need. Are trusses that strong? Typical framing on 16" or 24" centers is fine by me, so cost is the determining factor -- when I get there.

BASIC idea in my mind so far. No timber frame, basic pillars. Pad and posts to support a roof. "Attic" stairs for access to ceiling storage . Strong ridge beam for hoist and planned ceiling opening.

r maybe this.

building on a slab

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Lay a course of eight inch block plus a cap block around the perimeter and set framing on it. Gets the wood up off the ground level and adds a foot to ceiling height.

If you need an architect in addition to a contractor you did not hire a skilled contractor. If they can build a house this job is trivial by comparison

Re: labor comparison

John in NM

Honestly, neither of us has the experience to say for sure which is quicker or cheaper. Too many variables, too many options.

I do know that two people can roll a gable end truss roof in a few hours - I'll say 1000 sq ft because that's what I've done.

I do also know that all those cookie cutter houses that are built for speed all use truss roofs. Gotta be a reason for that.

Re: labor comparison

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Part of the reason must be that

A. It takes less skilled labor to set trusses than cut and set rafters, and

B. Once a truss is up, so is the ceiling. That’s a separate step with stick building. But you know that.

Re: Thanks for the starting help, some choices

John K Jordan

>>> have the compressor on its own pad adjacent to the new pad in its own 2 x 4 padded enclosure.

If some of this space is going to be a wood shop you might make the outside pad a bit larger and put a dust collector in there too. Mine is 4x8 with 5hp air compressor and 5hp cyclone and it is not exactly roomy.

furniture building and rafter cutting

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Hip roofs involve cutting 8 sets of identical (if the house is framed accurately) "Hip" and "Jack" rafters. A set consists of about 8+/- rafters of increasing length, from about 3 ' up to the length of the common rafter. In its essence, cuttings are made from longer boards. The framer I hired was experienced in constructing a hip roof but not as experienced as I in teasing every inch of yield from expensive hardwood. We had on site many lengths of 2 x 8. The framer hoisted up the first 2 x8 for a hip rafter and cut 3 feet waste off the end. I was aghast!

By now were had established a good working relationship. I told him I would do the lumber picking and prepared a cut list from the rafter tables and a list of the lengths we had on hand. He looked skeptical when I selected the next 2 x 8 to cut. It yielded a piece of "waste" several feet long. This process repeated until we were able to begin using these cut-offs in the shorter hip and jack rafters. I had calculated that the cut-off lengths from earlier cuts were nearly exactly what was needed for the shorter jacks and hips. Waste was being generated in inches , not feet. Upon examining the waste pile at the end of the day the framer paid me a compliment. It paid dividends when we had the argument about what the compound angle was to be for the octagonal porch roof beams. I wound up hand sawing these with Diston hand saw while the crew looked on in amazement. The young helper had never seen a hand saw used.

Fact:The raw material lumber in a conventional roof will be more expensive than in a truss roof. Which roof winds up cheaper depends on truss plant cost vs framer labor cost(and skill) and what is required to hoist up the trusses. That said, the difference is piddly if the conventional roof yields acres of space that will be used. Someone building project houses will go with trusses to save $100/ house if their calculations and notions lead them to believe they are saving $100. The home owner rarely gets involved in the decision that might enable them to use this attic space. They might have been happy to pay an extra $500 in lieu of renting a storage building by the month. Not the case when the home owner is the contractor.

Exactly correct...

John in NM

And that is basically why I never hire contractors - their goals are not the same as mine.

But that does not mean that a framed up roof is always best for all applications, and just in general, the OP struck me as a situation where using a truss design would be the way to go.

Really it will depend on who does the framing - if he's lucky enough to have an experienced pro around who won't charge an arm and a leg. In that case, a framed up roof may be better. The scarcity of experienced pros who don't charge an arm and a leg is another reason I learn to do work myself.

There's always several ways to skin a particular cat, and usually two or three of them will be about equivalent in balancing pros and cons. That's why we all love to offer advice here - it ends up being a fun debate and usually we learn things

Re: Exactly correct...

Bruce, a MN Galoot

“And that is basically why I never hire contractors - their goals are not the same as mine.”

Amen!

When we moved to this town we ended up going with a builder to get the house we wanted. The carpenter wad great, but the contractor was a major PITA. We didn’t agree on anything, and it was because his goals weren’t ours.

Re: furniture building and rafter cutting

Barry Irby

Many years ago I was a builder. In those days, If you could frame a roof and layout and cut stair stringers, you were a carpenter. Most of them were just guys with a hammer. Later, a nail gun.

I used to do a cut list for all the parts. If I framed the house you could carry the trash away in the trunk of your car. If I subbed out the framing you would need a dump truck.

That statement is not an exaggeration

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

....well except for drywall. Drywall "scraps" nearly filled the foundation trench. I saved all the lumber cut-offs to use as kindling in the fire place. They fit, mounded, in the box the dishwasher came in. We hired a brick mason that kept half bricks to be used on future courses. That was rare.