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Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

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Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#1

Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

One of the more useful things we learned while working in the Headley shop was to avoid squeeze-out. It is avoidable. I never get glue where it should not be on mortise and tenon or dowel joints, or the inside corners of dovetail joints. On panels there will be only tiny droplets of squeeze-out that are easily scraped and sanded away.

Glue theory: For a perfect joint only 3 molecular layers of glue are required to make as good a bond as can be made. Any more is gap filling which is weaker. Once wet with glue no clamping force or scraping can remove the surface layer of glue from the wood. Hence, once wet with glue there will always be enough glue on the surface to make as good a bond as can be made.

Gluing begins with proper joint preparation. For a mortise and tenon or dowel joint the female part of the joint has extra depth to accommodate glue scrapped from the walls as the male part is inserted.


Most critical is glue application. For edge gluing I apply glue straight from the bottle. For 4/4 lumber I lay down a double stripe as shown in the picture. For thicker lumber I will add a stripe down the center of the mating piece. The fist step of assembly is to rub the joint to transfer and distribute glue on each mating surface. Clamp pressure is applied slowly so that glue has a chance to flow into any place along the joint where glue isn't.



For mortise and tenon and dovetail joints glue is applied to both surfaces with a short bristle brush or spatula. For a dovetail a thin layer of glue is applied to the tail board and glue is brushed or scraped onto the pin board to leave the surface just wet with glue. Upon insertion of pins into tails excess glue is scraped from the tail sockets and squeezed to the outside of the joint where it can be removed after cure. The just wet pins do not have any excess glue to be scraped so no squeeze-out appears on the inside corner.

For mortise and tenon excess glue is applied to the mortise with a spatula. These joints are often gappy, more or less, so extra glue to fill the gaps is desirable. Glue is then applied to the tenon with brush or spatula to just wet it. As is the case with a dovetail there is not excess glue that will scrape to the outside of the joint upon insertion. Note that in each case the last glue to be applied is the very thin layer on the male part of the joint. It is essential that this layer not begin to dry before insertion. In either case it is impossible to scrape glue off the mating surfaces upon insertion to the point where the bond would suffer.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#2

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Tom Norton

Appreciate the info. But the challenge I am having is with even a thin coat of Old Brown Glue on the round tenon. It seems as though it "scrapes" off as it is inserted into the mortise. This is what I am , maybe incorrectly, calling squeeze out.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#3

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Be sure to run a layer of glue on the inside of the mortise, too. It doesn’t have to be a sloppy mess, just enough to wet the surface.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#4

You are applying too much glue

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If glue is scraping off the tenon and appearing as squeeze-out around the assembled joint you are applying too much glue to the tenon. The "extra" that is squeezing out didn't add any benefit to the joint so don't add this extra. Believe that squeeze out is avoidable and then improve your application technique to not have any. It is as simple as that.

Apply plenty to the mortise. Apply to tenon with a short stiff brush and apply no more than necessary to coat it like you were coating with shellac finish- just enough to get a shine. Any more than the thinnest layer is too much and unnecessarily too much. If the tenon is rectangular than you can apply with a spatula and then scrape off all you can before assembly. A brush works better on a round tenon.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#5

Re: You are applying too much glue

Tom Norton

Just starting finished glueing up 2 chairs. Maybe the idea of a short bristle glue brush might help with controlling the amount of glue on the tenon. I have not had this challenge when using pva glue. The hide glue, Old Brown Glue, seems to have a learning curve!

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#6

Re: You are applying too much glue

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I’ve used both Old Brown Glue and the Titebond stuff. They are pretty much the same as far as application goes, i.e., they’re both fairly runny. That’s why I make sure to wet both surfaces well. It’ll be okay, you’ll get it.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#7

Jack Guzman from Maine

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Jack Guzman from Maine

I agree that you should shoot for no squeeze-out but I find in chair making ,even with very careful application I get a small bead of glue around the edges of the joint. The only way I found to avoid this is to not apply any glue to the tenon. I would rather err on the side of messiness than starve the joint. If I were building a chair out of something like cherry or walnut and was planning on a clear finish I would take more care with glue squeeze-out but seeing I paint my chairs it really doesn't become an issue.

One other thing about chairs. When assembling a chair I might have upwards of 30 mortise/tenon pairs to join at once in a limited amount of time. Shooting for neatness here is good practice but practically not a priority. Getting everything together properly before the glue begins to grab is. ---Jack

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#8

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Tom Norton

Decided on a plan for the glue up of the cherry chairs. I am going to prefinish before hand. My finish schedule is 1 coat of garnet dewaxed shellac sprayed. Followed with 1 coat of old Master's Varnish. I am plugging the mortises with corks!

After assembly I will sand and apply further coats of varnish.

Now I need to make some racks to hold all the stretchers!!

Thanks

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#9

a brush is your frined

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

A large trunk, or drawer, or a case piece with many dividers is more of a challenge than a chair. Yet, I don't get squeeze-out. I'll wager I can paint a thin coat of hide glue on a tenon as fast as what ever method used that results in too much glue. For some surfaces, like dovetails I prefer the spatula. I have a cup of glue at hand. I dip the end of the spatula in the glue, pick up a small drop and smear it over the pin or tail. The operation that applies the glue at the same time scrapes away all but a thin film, like a wiper blade on a windshield. It has to be quick to assemble a large drawer with a total of 14 pins, two surfaces per pin and 14 pin sockets.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#10

Re: a brush is your frined

Don Stephan

It has to be EXTREMELY quick with some glues because they start to skin over so very quickly. And if the layer of glue is only 3 molecules thick there is no still-wet glue under the skin. It would be interesting to read results of a test of 3 molecule thick layers of glue that were allowed to skin over on both edges of a glueup before the joint was brought together and clamped.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#11

Clint Searl

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

Clint Searl

IMO, your illustration is overdone. If the mating surfaces are tightly dry fitted, very little glue is needed, which, I suspect, you would consider starved.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#12

Reply- open time

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

All water based glue has an "open" time, to be found in the technical literature for the glue. Five minutes is a good rule of thumb but this time obviously varies with temperature and humidity. If the surface of the applied glue dries before assembly the joint will be weak. However, this fact is no excuse to slather on gobs of glue and endure the consequences of squeeze-out.

During the open time the glue dries from the outside of the glue layer to the inside. The outside surface of a layer of glue that will not squeeze out of a mortise and tenon or dovetail will be prone to surface drying no faster than a thicker layer that results in a mess to be cleaned up later.

Fact: It is possible to totally avoid squeeze-out that is a problem to clean up without suffering loss of joint strength. This experience is one of the many things one has an opportunity to learn in woodworking. Believe you can.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#13

chair joints

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

for the back spindles I would slather glue into the mortise and insert dry spindles with a screwing motion to distribute glue......like a rub joint in flat work. Agree that is a lot of ends to coat glue upon. For deep M&T joint I think it essential to coat both mating surfaces, especially so if the joint is tight.

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

#14

Re: Squeeze-out can and should be avoided

T.M. Stock

Very good summary for AR/PVA. Maybe add that surface prep is critical as well for bonding - that thin glue layer has an easier time hanging onto things when the surface is not old and lower energy...if water beads, the surface needs re-prep. For hide, more squeeze-out is better, but the same things apply for fit, prep, and glue freshness for AR/PVA as for hide (use fresh hot hide from granules and avoid the issue entirely).

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