CNC Machines

Re: CNC Machines

Dick Coers

A good friend bartered some work to get a Probotix cnc in your price range. He had trouble with an electrical interference with the VFD on the spindle, wore out several anti backlash nuts, and had to add reinforcement to reduce flexing. He is a studio furniture maker, and is working in a lot of 8/4 hardwoods. He recently spent about $35,000 to get a real machine. He's thrilled that the holes are actually round, and can run at higher feed rates. I can't remember the name of the machine he bought, I'll find out if you are interested.

Re: CNC Machines

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

This reply may or may not be helpful to you. Perhaps you have a good need for a CNC? Perhaps before you spend the money, you might ask yourself why you need a CNC machine.

I am a studio furniture maker and I do not own a CNC. In fact, I rather doubt I will ever have a CNC in my shop. I am not opposed to them. But I myself gain so much more satisfaction applying my own skills to my work and I believe my clients appreciate that.

For me, I would gain no satisfaction standing there watching a computer do the work for me.

T.

Depends on your style of work *LINK*

Dick Coers

Here is a link to James' Artful Home listing. With his style of work, there's not many straight lines. He started out with the idea he would be making patterns. That quickly changed to the plan to be making other parts while the CNC is making the profiled parts. It's like having another employee that doesn't complain.


https://www.artfulhome.com/artist/james-pearce/8338?refid=73425&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9qin5pnq2AIVTz2BCh26lAg-EAAYASAAEgLBX_D_BwE

Have you run a CNC John?

Dick Coers

I worked in a model shop, running one off parts for 12 years. Before we had the CNC, it was a hand sculpting project. Low precision, high labor costs. The $200,000 spent on that machine paid off in less than 2 years. With today's software, programming is a breeze. I've never heard where you have to make a thousand identical parts to make a profit, and have not experienced that either.

Narrowing the application to your shop only?

Dick Coers

Making knife handles let's you decide that, "There are applications for CNC work in woodworking, but not a lot of them"

You've got to be kidding me! CNC is considered a necessity in the cabinet industry. From two man shops to giants!

Overhead is calculated on labor. Labor man hours on a CNC to manufacture a part is dramatically lower that made by hand.

If you've never used a CNC, you can't be the best source for telling others they aren't very practical for woodworking.

Re: Nope again...

Brian Holcombe

I've looked into this recently, and agree with both you. I do not own a CNC but the hobbyist level machines or entry level machines are considerably slower than industrial type machines at many tasks. Consider as well that hobby type machines are going to be louder, because they use a router instead of a spindle, and they're going to require manual tool changes and manual replacement of parts. They are also not made to withstand heavy/constant use.

I thought about this for a lathe, recently, and for $12,000 more than a copy lathe it ends up consuming a very similar amount of my time because I'm there feeding material every few minutes. I know myself well enough to know I won't get anything else done if I have to stop every few minutes.

There is, however, I'm sure a point at which they begin to make a lot of sense WRT manufacturing and considerably more expensive machines. No one would make the argument that an automatic feed industrial CNC lathe is going to slow me down.

Re: Nope again...

Dick Coers

Just based my response on you saying there were not a lot of applications for CNC in woodworking. You didn't say hobby, or industrial. A lot more people beyond me would disagree. A lot of maker spaces around the USA would disagree with you as well. Hobby CNC machines are a big industry as seen in the number of machine suppliers, DIY parts suppliers, huge number of Chinese small machines imported, and forums dedicated to it.

I didn't take offense to anything, just debating the subject.

Re: I agree John!

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

No, I don't own or intend to have one in my shop, BUT I was an Engineer for about 40 years prior to my retirement. I was often responsible for purchasing automated assembly / and testing machines for assembly of product for our factory. Many of these projects were fairly high dollar - $100K, up to $250K each.

We had some local suppliers that did own CNC machines. These suppliers justified these machines by producing repetitive parts for factories that used many identical tooled parts / year, mostly die inserts and or mold inserts.

It was very rare that those suppliers could compete price wise for parts we needed with other shops that used hand operated lathes / mills etc. Many of our suppliers of automated machines were fairly large shops that did several million dollars a years in business. Most (if any) did not own CNC mills due to the programming cost for producing a limited number of parts.

We had a fair sized tool room with 20+ full time tool and die personnel and could not justify a CNC ourselves.

Yeah, I could see a woodworking "shop" justifying one if they were a mass producer of a product that was produced in the thousands / year. But I would wager many of those are using simplified 2 or at most 3 axis machines.

Other than that, even with the newest programming methods (yes I have seen CNC programmed directly through cad / cam drawings at some shops) I cannot possibly see the cost / labor benefit calculation for a one or even 10 part off shop!

I disagree with the statement that CNC can produce parts that cannot be made by hand! In my years I have never seen this to be true.

I did have several robotic placement machines for automated assembly machines. And other programmed three axis machines for dispensing solder paste and placing components on printed circuit boards. As a woodworker and someone quite familiar with CNC machines I agree 100% with your assessment.

Here is a nice one that should be coming up *LINK*

Keith Newton

on the market.

I saw this in the link above about Wendell Castle. He called it Mr Chips, and I'd like to have one like this. I'm not sure I could make money with it, but hey!

Its the second photo in the third row down.


http://madmuseum.org/exhibition/wendell-castle-remastered

Re: CNC Machines

Tony - Memphis

I have a CNC Router Parts 24x48 Standard machine. I have been using it for about 1 1/2 years. I have really enjoyed using it. It has worked great and their support is fantastic. Its one of those things that, once you have it, you think of all sorts of things to do with it. I have used it for everything from making MDF jigs, making furniture parts, inlay, circuit boards, a few plastic parts, cutting/engraving aluminum, etc.

My only frustration has been with the ESS board that converts Ethernet to Parallel. I use a laptop with Mach3 and making that all work well can be tricky. I also broke a bearing - that was user error - heavy handed with a wrench. Funny thing is, even with a broken bearing, the machine worked just fine!

I am using a Bosch 1617 router in mine. Dust collection is a must. Don't forget all of the associated costs - tools, table, dust collection, etc. etc. It adds up. Oh, and software of course.

To qualify, I am a weekend warrior type. I build furniture and lots of other "stuff." I did lots of research before deciding on the CNCRP machine. I was going to buy one of the smaller machines, but I found lots of posts about modifying those machines to make the m work well. I didn't find much of that about the CNCRP machines, so I thought they would be a better choice. So far, so good. I had a similar philosophy, I bought a little more machine than I thought I wanted. I don't use the capacity much, but it is there if I need it. The heft/quality/design of the machine is what sold me.

Good luck with your machine. It is a lot of fun. I'm still learning. That's one reason I bought it. Just ventured into 3D printing too....that's a whole 'nother ballgame!

Tony

Oh, I'm using Vcarve Pro, Mach3, AutoCAD Fusion 360, old Intellicad, Corel ...think that's about it for software.

Re: CNC Machines

TomD

I haven't made the plunge yet, and it is a very difficult thing to sort out because there are so many formats.

There is no answer to your question as you didn't provide any specifics, and there are so many options within that price range. The answer in general is that it is and is not possible, depending on what you want.

I know this guy who is an immensely talented machinist who does steam locamotives and firearms. He built himself a desktop mill that used a efw hundred dollars worth of part, under a thousand, plus some raw metal which I think he can get as scrap, but for the rest of us ads up to at least 500. He was able to use the mill to make all the curved parts in the handle of a handgun he was making, those are enormously difficult to get crisp and nice, His machine would do profiling cuts in 1/2" steel, and he also got it to cut out the trigger, and the sear, two very complex shaped parts that normally are never produced by hand in a form that allows parts interchangeability. He also used an indexing attachment to allow him to headmark brass cases for his custom cartridge, and so on.

No question that at a cost, he got a good quality industrial machine that does real work, and allowed his project to be so professional that a hand engraver who rarely takes on new clients was willing to engrave many of his guns.

His use of CNC was in no way a deminishment of his hand skills which were extensive. But he was able to create a backdrop for it that included parts of shapes and complexity that we simply ignore. Why is it most woodwork is either on something like a box, or sometimes a bowl. Because we have foundational machines that create squares (TS) and bowls (the lathe). He succeeded because he didn't start out saying he would build a machine that would allow him to CNC the whole gun.

For a very interesting take on router machines look into Cheasapeak Small Craft's article over the last year or so. That will scare anyone away. Basically they need full size machines and they need to run fast and there is no end to the upgrade path.

But the flipside of that is the work that is being done by Nick Schade who has revolutionized an aspect of stitch and glue kayak building with a more artistic seam layout, is doing some kits, is adding branding elements and so on. He has a youtube channel.

There is a kid up here in Canada who has a website and is building paddleboard kits out of cnc parts. His CNC is partly wood and home designed.

A lot of people these days have very professional websites, and online presences, but then complain CNC would rob them of creativity. They just haven't thought it through. One of the things that happens all the time is the disconnect between what we thing and what the client thinks. I remember this with banking. I met a teller once who thought that clients would never use instant tellers, they preferred the personal touch. Well some do, but most just accepted their personal lives were open season for the tellers and migrated instantly to the machines when they could. We assume it is the whatever we are currently doing that clients, or family members want. But I pretty much guarantee that CNC will help you create a powerful brand, and just like the kids who like the box a toy comes in more than the toy sometimes, clients will prefer the bag to the object in it. If you give them lots of stuff, they will appreciate it.

So back to the OP, branding is something even small CNCs will do. They will cut out stencils, and stamps. Make hammer stamps, engravings, inlays, and ink line work, allowing you to create and sign your own deplomas. With all that stuff, your clients will buy a block of polished wood from you. I know, I got one for Xmas, apparently the person gifting me thought they were buying me a sushi platter.

Well stated TomD!

Re: CNC Machines

Brian Holcombe

Good insights Tom, and I read their article it was very much an unvarnished view.

Re: I agree John!

T.M. Stock

Really dependent on the skill of the user and situation. Small shop luthiers have embraced CNC machines for prototyping and production when unit counts are as low as 2-3, because minor tweaks to a design (e.g., slight increase in width of neck) can be made quickly with modern modeling software, so a riff on a current instrument becomes a case of spending an hour to adjust things and saving far more than the on the build.

And no - I don't have a CNC in my shop... I have something better - someone else that invested the $15K in a used system (one that sold for that magic $30K or so) and lets me use it (FWIW, all of my current use is for tooling, versus actual instrument building).

Re: CNC Machines

HOWARD GORMAN

Thank you everyone for all your comments, very helpful. Given how busy we all are it's really great when someone takes the time to put their thoughts down in writing. I'm still deciding on what direction to go in, but I am now better informed!