A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking article

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

Barry Irby

Is this the chemical that was often used to darken mahogany?

My question below about walnut/mahogany prompted me to think about how to stain the patch. I will stay away from this stuff. Thanks for posting.

And isn't this stuff...

Mike Farinella

the dye David Marks used in his finishing?

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"Is this the chemical that was often used to darken mahogany" Lye, ammonia and hexavalent chromium all darken mahogany and have been used. None are as light fast as premetalized dye in my testing.

Re: And isn't this stuff...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I don't know, but anyone advocating it is exposing themselves to liability. You will recall I am normally on the other side of these conversations, trying to tamp down chemical hysteria. But in this case it is justified from safety and regulatory concern.

Re: And isn't this stuff...

TomD

Interesting, it is used to darken necks to match rosewood bodies. I have never messed with it, due to immediate health hazards, which include blindness. Darkening wood to match other wood, when one doesn't need to seems like a silly way to go, even aside from any dangers. You have the option of having fake wood that looks like real wood, or showing the two species that work in different ways. The mahogany these days is almost worth more than rosewood, so why hide it.

Re: And isn't this stuff...

TomD

FWW once had an article on cold molding a cradle where the guy was shown awash in epoxy resin. About 1/3 of people have great durability realitive to sensitizers, and can work with urushiol, as an example. But for most people, this is a very bad idea. I got a letter back from FWW (way before electronic communication), and they said that they were concerned about dangers, etc... They never printed a warning though.

Think so

David Yoho

I seem to remember seeing him use it on at least one of his shows years ago.

Re: And isn't this stuff...

jesse cloud

Chuck Bender is also an advocate, but at least he does discuss how toxic it is in his presentations.

I also remember a FWW review of shop vacuums a few years ago that wouldn't even look at the Festool vac because "No woodworker would ever want a HEPA filter on a shop vac".

Good warning Bill. Thanks!

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

William Duffield

Those of you who have seen the article and who think FWW's recommendation is dangerous and irresponsible should exercise your civic duty and write to Taunton Press, expressing your concern. If I subscribed to the magazine, I think I would threaten to cancel my subscription if they did not print a retraction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_dichromate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium

Civic duty to threaten them?

agree, done and a tale obout Cr(VI)

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have sent them my experimental results as well as links to authoritative publications describing what is considered acceptable handling, storage and disposal, as well as toxicology data. I expect them to consider this information, solicit information from their trusted consultants and come up with a response that is reasoned as well as scientifically and regulatory valid. Mass. has state regulations that apply to the author's use, but that is his problem not mine.

The FWW author did his best to disguise the fact he was using hexavalent chromium [CR(VI)] by calling what he was using "potash". Chemists of the world would have some reservations with this liberty in chemical nomenclature. To what ever extent readers recognize he is advocating Cr(VI) FWW will get an ear full.

Years ago I recommended using stainless steel anodes for electrolysis cleaning. Someone claimed, with no supporting data, that this anode would generate hexavalent chromium. Apparently this claim was more believable that my data to the contrary. For years I have gotten shrill emails form "concerned citizens" imploring or threatening me to retract my recommendation. I concluded that hexavalent chromium is a passionate concern among some.

I was at a SAPFM meeting where a high school teacher showed projects his students had stained with Cr(VI). I was aghast. Using a proven carcinogen in high school shop, really! I asked, and was denied, time to tell of the hazards of Cr(VI). People just don't want to hear it.

I don't find the result on walnut attractive. The stain on mahogany is nice but one can get to the same place with dye stain. How Cr(VI), one of the most powerful oxidizing agents, will affect finish over time is unknown. There may be enough experience with shellac to come to a conclusion. It's a chemistry experiment with an unknown long term result with anything else. There just is no valid reason to use it.

And then there is always a dissenter...

Brian in SLO

I use Potassium Dichromate occasionally with no problems or issues. Let us remember that as with all things in life goes responsibility. Although considered hazardous in some circles, with proper handling and usage PD has a place in finishing where stains or dyes are not desired. I sometimes want a color from the wood itself without the use of colorants. I'm just helping the wood to show itself just as does ammonia when used for fuming. However, whenever I use PD I am always careful to wear protective equipment (i.e. gloves, long sleeves, plenty of ventilation, etc.). Just be sensible and safe.

Your Choice, Of Course

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Brian,

Just make sure you tell whomever gets the piece that it harbors a highly toxic compound that may be sealed in now but will be released if the piece is sanded or refinished.

PG&E and Cr(VI)

MartinMJ

Best I can tell, Cr(VI) was the chemical at the center of the residents of Hinkley California and PG&E lawsuit. Anyone see the Erin Brockovich movie?

true

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

TM Stock

I think I recall using my protest cancellation of what was a charter subscription for some truly monsterous transgression - I think it was a shot of Mario Rodriguez in cargo shorts, dress shoes, thigh-high Gold Toes, and a fresh wax job up top. I even got a call from some junior flunky at Taunton...

FWW: Good morning, Mr. Stock. As a Platinum Level, Special Concierge Service subscriber, we felt we had to call to discuss your cancellation of your subscription. Do you have a few minutes?

TMS: You idiots know exactly what you did. Last issue...Page 72...you really want to go there?

FWW: Ah...mmm...so another 'Page 72' problem? I was afraid of that. Would it do any good - any good at all - to offer our most profound and sincere apologies? I could have Mr. Rodriquez call you...?

TMS: No, and stop making it worse.

So that was my one shot at a protest cancellation. That said, nothing else has come close to that...some things you just cannot unsee.

Re: waste handling?

Henry (Raleigh NC)

At my day job we can make the case for using such materials, if we REALLY have to. Mostly we avoid it, even though we have proper protective equipment and the use of fume hoods etc., because we know such a process would never go into production. We find alternatives.

I would never use it at home, in part because of the waste handling. What do you do with any extra or waste materials? That is as important as proper usage.

Henry

Well done! Great post.

Dick Coers

The only reason magazines need subscribers, is to provide a circulation number for the advertisers. The cost of the subscription helps cover some costs, but advertising money drives the profit.

The author called it potash?

John in NM

That is indeed very misleading.

What amuses me about all this is that people fret and wring their hands over tiny amounts of organic solvents, whether finishes are "food safe", and then for the most part they don't seem similarly alarmed by the casual use of an extremely toxic heavy metal reagent.

Like Bill, I usually don't worry much about light exposure to solvents and chemicals. I also pay attention when someone like Bill says "this is a bad one".

On the other hand, I haven't subscribed to FWW in more than a decade.... so I can't really complain The internet and forums like this one are just so much more interesting.

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

Jim Hoeller

I have used Red Devil Lye (sodium hydroxide) to "age" cherry and it works quite well. I have not read of any adverse consequences from using it. I use one teaspoon to a pint of warm water. Any left in the container after aging the wood was poured down the drain.

I've done that too...

John in NM

Works well on cherry and mahogany, probably on other woods as well. It won't equalize lighter wood (like sapwood) since it's not a stain, but to me it provides a more natural aged look.

I've also used it to change the color of ferric acetate on maple from green to brown. Ferric acetate is steel wool dissolved in vinegar. It reacts with tannins in the wood leaving the iron behind as a horrible green stain. Lye turns the green to a darkish brown (it helps oxidize the iron I believe), and if you apply hydrogen peroxide while the lye is still wet on the wood, it turns to a very nice amber brown.

The nice thing about lye is that you can make it as weak as you want, neutralize it with vinegar if you feel the need, or just pour it down the drain.

Re: A warning about recent Fine Woodowrking articl

ken combs

Drain disposal is fine. After all, it is the main ingredient in Drano, and other brands, of drain cleaner.

I also use it in my tank for electrolysis derusting, in place of the commonly recommended washing soda. Just seems more effective to me.

Edit lye info

ken combs

Forgot to add, it's really hard to find now locally. When someone does have it in stock, it's under lock and key and requires presenting a state issued ID to purchase. Apparently it's a precursor chemical in some making recipes.

Re: Edit lye info

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Pure LYE is available at Amazon ~ https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Drain-Cleaner-Opener-lb

Don't know just why any agency would restrict Lye from public purchase as it is one of the easiest alkaline products to make at home! A strong solution can be made by adding water to wood ashes. I remember several people in my youth making soap and they obtained lye this way...