Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

John McGaw

I cannot opine on Dominoes but I can say that if the fit is tight now they are probably going to get a lot tighter when you apply a water-based glue to them. That is the reason that I elected to use Gorilla Glue when assembling a bookshelf which is held together with 30 wedged through-tenons -- this glue acted as a lubricant while a water-based glue would have swelled the wood and might have made the job impossible.

Forget the 1-hour Junk

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

especially for furniture that you expect to last.

TB will be fine.

John's comment might apply to biscuits which are compressed and will expand by design. Domino tenons are not compressed so any swell from the wet glue will be minuscule.

Re: Forget the 1-hour Junk

John McGaw

I would still advise caution with tight-fitting M&T, no matter what. Whatever the 'tenon' material's pre-treatment, if it is wood then it will swell and the other parts of the joint are also going to swell when wet. If you need to hammer or force the joint during a dry-fit then it isn't going to get any easier once you bring moisture to the game. If the joint is an easy slip fit when dry and you aren't required to fit a bunch of parts simultaneously then water-based will probably be fine.

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Keith Newton

For tight joints, use the Tightbond. You might NOT want to use TB I which grabs fastest if you think you might get into trouble. I'm pretty sure I've read that TB II is slower, and III is even longer still.

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Dry the loose tenons until they are indeed loose. Then use whatever woodworking glue you prefer- Titebond regular, liquid hide or hide. Epoxy has no place in furniture assembly.

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Brian Holcombe

Titebond, I can't stand epoxy and have seen very good epoxy fail years later in applications where it was supposed to succeed.

Titebond Liquid Hide Glue

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

This has a little more extended setting time, does not affect the finish, is cleaned up with water, and may be reversed if you screw up (we never screw up, not so? ).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Screw Up?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Never.

Screw in; sure.

Screw out; happens.

Screw down; yup.

To actually Screw Up you need a computer, not glue.

Wiggle room

BobinAk

If I remember right, there's an adjustment on your domino to allow wiggle room on your tenons. If not, just sand them a bit for a looser fit. I made the mistake of dry fitting a large case glue up and leaving it sit over night. Had to beat it apart. I sanded and fitted each tenon and put it together with title bond. Been two years and all is fine.

Re: Wiggle room

William Duffield

The wiggle room is only in one direction, but it's not in the surfaces where swelling causes binding and the glue provides a structural bond.

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Keith Newton

" Epoxy has no place in furniture assembly."

Bill, that is a pretty broad sweeping statement, that I have to disagree with.

I've been building furniture as a large portion of my profession for over 40 years, and have used it a lot, and never had ANY failures.

Just because you've never bothered to learn to use it, or designed projects which were to great a challenge to manage with other adhesives shouldn't disqualify it for those where it is the best choice.

I've used at least 100 gallons, so I'm not just talking a few projects.

Wow! thanks for all the responses.....

Barry Irby

These mortises are accurately cut with the Domino machine and I am using real dominoes. You can press them in with hand pressure, but they are tough to get out. I did not trust myself t get them perfectly spaced so I cut one slot on each end at the wider setting.

I used the really loose home made ones to dry assemble and disassemble so I could fit the panels and get all the margins right.

I had not thought of Liquid hide glue. I have some Old Brown glue. May give that a try.

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to go with good old Titebond. The long grained joints in the panels are glued with Titebond. If Titebond fails, it can all go at once.

Epoxy resin in furniture making

Sgian Dubh

I agree with you Keith. Epoxy resin adhesives certainly have their place, especially useful where either a long open time or strength is required. Good examples include putting together complicated laminations perhaps involving compound bends, or free bending jobs requiring much fiddly clamp application as the bend is formed where the slow catalyst can provide a good long open time, up to an hour or so. Another scenario is where mixed materials are in play and regular wood glue won't bond to one of the materials, e.g., steel rod or threaded rod used as a replacement for wooden dowelling (yes, it happens!), and so on.

As to the original question from Barry I have used Domino joinery quite extensively, and I've never had a problem with either the assembly at clamping up time, nor with using one or another form of emulsion glue, e.g., PVA or aliphatic resin where such an adhesive was appropriate - you can always buy a few minutes extra open time by adding roughly 5 - 10% water to the adhesive.

Alternative wood adhesives are all perfectly acceptable in my book, and the choice of which to use depends on the open time required to get the job clamped up, as well as other potential factors, e.g., moisture resistance or proofing if you're working on a piece destined for an exterior location - structural gap filling requirements of an adhesive aren't a factor that I've ever come across with Domino joints, so this characteristic that some adhesives possess can pretty much be ignored. Slainte.

Assembly with Titebond type glues

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The viscosity of these adhesives climbs dramatically as water is removed by the mating wood. Hence, a tight joint with little glue (and little water to be removed) can seize up before the parts become completely slid into place-dovetails, M&T, for example.

It is the nature of this partially cured glue that it has huge impact resistance. Beating on a seized joint is an exercise in probable failure. However, until the joint is completely cured the glue has weak shear strength. A joint that resists moving under the persuasion of a 3 pound hammer will slide effortlessly together with a bit of steady clamp pressure.

If I can orient a clamp to pull a joint together I never worry about a Titebond joint seizure.

Be wary of your Old Brown Glue. It has a limited shelf life. Why woodowrkers use it is a puzzle to me. Titebond liquid hide is liquefied with chemicals that don't result in limited shelf life. This fact would seem a compelling reason to prefer Titebond.

Standing by my statement

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

To repeat"Epoxy has no place in furniture assembly. " The statement remains sage advice for Barry and the like who are beginning to learn how to assemble furniture, by in large with conventional joinery, using wood. The fact that furniture assembled with steel rods might benefit from epoxy or that a laminated stair case might benefit from epoxy does not diminish the fact that by and large someone making furniture does not need to rely on epoxy's near infinite assembly time and gaping gap filling capacity. To do so is to admit lack of skill in making typical furniture joints and assembling them.

I'll say it again. Most of you do not need the properties of this expensive adhesive to assemble the furniture you make. Better to learn to properly make and assemble joints using typical furniture glue. If your mortise and tenon joints are sloppy learn to make them not sloppy instead of filling them with epoxy. If you lack confidence assembling something, practice assembly with dry joints. Enlist a helper. Properly prepare the joints so they don't need to be beat together. It will be the exceptional piece of furniture that can't be reliably assembled with one of the conventional wood glues.

Re: Wow! thanks for all the responses.....

William Duffield

If Titebond fails, it can all go at once.

No it won't. Have you not heard of Murphy's Law?

But it probably won't fail in our lifetime, unless it's a chair. That's why people who build furniture to last for centuries prefer hide glue. It is reversible, so your descendants can easily disassemble all the joints that haven't failed yet, to get at the joint that has failed.

To disassemble dry test assemblies with Dominos, I use one of these.

https://www.zoro.com/irwin-vise-grip-locking-sheet-metal-clamp-8-3-18-cap-8r/i/G1913922/cg

If that doesn't work, I drill a quarter inch hole through the domino, drop in a drift pin, and tap it out with a hammer on the side of the drift.

The sheet metal vise-grips can beat up the gluing surfaces of the Dominos, so I don't reuse any I have extracted that way for the final glue-up, unless I'm using epoxy.

2 myths

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"That's why people who build furniture to last for centuries prefer hide glue."

Did you see the Headley shop using hide glue......for example? The second myth is that the aliphatic glues are not amenable to disassembly. The are, using the same techniques as hide. You should try it to keep from repeating this false claim that only hide glue can be undone by steam. We have a furniture restorer in the club that does it routinely. Skeptical, I tried it and behold it worked as he claimed as shown in the picture disassembling a M&T joint glued with Titebond. Later discussion with chemist from Titebond confirmed that the crosslinking in Titebond regular is reversible with moist heat.

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

jesse cloud

I've glued many hundreds of Dominos, never used anything but titebond or other yellow glue. Never had a failed glue-up.

A few good practices:

Don't put in too much glue. The fit is tight enough that excess glue can prevent the joint coming all the way together. Just a light coat is plenty.

If the fit is so tight you need to hammer on it, dissemble and lightly sand the dominoes so they will go in with hand pressure.

For a big glueup with lots of dominoes, do it in two phases. Put glue on one end of the dominoes only and on one piece of the two coming together. Gently tap the domis in to be sure they are fully seated, then add glue to the second set of mortises and complete the assembly. Having a helper is a great idea, but be sure he knows the process before you apply glue. No time for Q&A after glue is applied.

Always do a dry fit!!

Always clearly mark the reference side of each piece. Too easy to assemble one piece facing the wrong way and mess up the reveal or the flush joint. (OK, on second thought I did have a fail once ).

How about some pics of your project?

Re: Loose tenon glue up, Epoxy or Titebond?

Bill Howatt

I'm inclined to say that I like to use the standard adhesives on new construction which implies properly fitted joints.

OTOH, if I have to do a repair such as on chairs I find that epoxy has a definite benefit since the wood surfaces no longer have the proper surface for good adhesion with the usual wood glues.

Bill

Qualified agreement

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We have a professional furniture restorer/conservator in our club. He provides an earful when it comes to epoxy and furniture. He does not like encountering it, for dealing with it in a repair is often difficult and hence, expensive. For repair of furniture that has little value or is not expected to acquire value an epoxy repair could be the best cost effective approach.

He doesn't use it, but then he is working on valuable antique pieces. Rather the wood in the area to be repaired is restored and the joint remade, or some variant on this theme.

Re: 2 myths

William Duffield

You don't need steam for hide glue, just hot water. And you don't need to completely remove all the old glue from the joint if you want the new glue to stick.

That looks like a pretty sophisticated piece of equipment in your picture. How hot does it make the steam? I don't remember seeing one like it in any of the furniture shops I've visited or in any woodworking store or catalog.

Where were they going to get steam in the vast majority of shops in the 18th Century? Not that it would have done them any good, because it would have destroyed the hide glue.

Re: 2 myths

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"That looks like a pretty sophisticated piece of equipment in your picture." I too was skeptical but I like to get data before denying aliphatic resin joints can't be disassembled. It is what I could round up quick to confirm what I was told by the professional that takes modern glue joints apart as part of his business- in my case a hot plate, pressure cooker, Tygon tubing and basketball inflation needle. I didn't consider it sophisticated. I am not in the business repairing furniture. I just wanted to see for myself that a Titebond M&T joint is easily disassembled. What I saw in his shop was a small affair that I think I remember was for tailoring, and a basket ball inflation needle.

"How hot does it make the steam?" Unless the water is boiled under pressure the steam will leave the water at the boiling point of water, about 98 C at my elevation. The temperature it arrives at in the joint will be less. What ever it is it is effective for disassembling hide and aliphatic glue joints, as related by the person that does it for a living.

" I don't remember seeing one like it in any of the furniture shops I've visited or in any woodworking store or catalog." No, you would need to go to a kitchen store to find a pressure cooker. In my case I went to the kitchen. Our big canning cooker is good for steaming small walnut parts. Before the fire I was allowed to dry things in the microwave.

"Where were they going to get steam in the vast majority of shops in the 18th Century? Not that it would have done them any good, because it would have destroyed the hide glue. " I could answer the first question and deny the second claim, but, why is this question relevant to your claim that people that build furniture to last use hide glue, and aliphatic resin glue is not reversible? You go to SAPFM meetings so you know very well not every builder uses hide glue. You know the Headley shop uses white glue for their heirloom furniture and have for decades. Do they not strive to build furniture to last? You will have to accept, or not, the fact that at least one professional furniture fixer can repair aliphatic resin joints the same way he repairs hide joints.

The important feature is re-use

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Ungluing parts is not the critical issue.

The big advantage of hide glue is that it is reactivated by fresh hide glue. Other glues need to be cleaned out thoroughly. They do not permit glue-on-glue applications. With hide glue one can simply add glue to the mating section and clamp the two together.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Wow! thanks for all the responses.....

AZ in Colorado Springs

I have never used a Domino. Are the tenons difficult to remove by hand because the fit is airtight? When I use dowels I sand a small flat along the length to allow air and excess glue a way out. Do the loose tenons allow for this?