Now we know how, how do we know when

Re: Now we know how, how do we know when

Brian Holcombe

Bill,

I can look at the rounded over edge of a plane blade at the point that it will stop picking up shavings in a wooden plane. My requirements are the surface finish, primarily. For anything A2 I simply sharpen when the shavings begin to split in the cut (micro chipping at the edge) for everything else it's a combination of surface finish and resistance.

It depends...

John in NM

In some cases I sharpen much sooner than others. Smoothing some mesquite veneered drawer fronts once was the most memorable example of that I can recall. Had to resharpen maybe twice per front to keep from getting any tear out - mesquite is terrible stuff for tear out.

In most other cases, like edge jointing, I couldn't even say how often. Basically like you, when the plane stops picking up a shaving.

Scrub plane it hardly even matters - I guess when my arms get too tired its good to take a break and sharpen.

When there is resistance and push harder.

Re: Now we know how, how do we know when

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

At the start of every job, or whenever I haven't picked up that plane in a while, because even an edge that was left sharp when last used can pick up oxidation over time. It's pleasant, it's routine, and it's satisfying.

And as the job proceeds, anytime it's not pulling itself into the work.

For chisels, I'm always refreshing on a fine stone during the job. Like a draftsman sharpening his pencil. Part of the rhythm of the work.

Wiley

P. S. Some truthiness....I talk like I'm doing a bunch of stuff now. I'm not . Am referring to other days.

Re: Now we know how, how do we know when

david weaver

When it seems like it's more effort to keep working than it is to stop and sharpen.

Whether that's dictated by physical force, or need to get a certain result.

Re: Brian's comment...

david weaver

..on carbon steel matches mine. I see a greater amount of wear on the edge of a carbon steel iron before it starts to give the same feel as a2, but the wear is uniform and not chippy.

Chasing A2 a few degrees further up in final bevel limits the chipping, but it makes for less wear to lose clearance.

It helps a lot with the carbon steel to use the cap iron and take healthier shavings (as in, I would probably remove two to three times the volume with the try plane now vs. what I would've removed in the past with a LN 7 and A2 iron. I could remove more volume now probably with an A2 iron in the try plane because the tiny chipping is of little consequence, but it to getting the most out of a carbon steel iron to learn how to stretch the sharpening intervals, which in turn sped up dimensioning by hand).

Re: Now we know how, how do we know when

steve voigt

Similar to what Wiley said, I would guess that maybe 10-20% of my sharpening is in response to noticing that the tool is actually dull. The other 80-90% happens this way:

- If I'm about to begin an important operation, I sharpen.

- If I can't remember when I last sharpened a tool, I sharpen it.

- If I haven't used a tool in a while, I sharpen it.

- If I've been working hard and need a break, I sharpen.

- If I'm starting my day and feel a little fuzzy-headed, I sharpen.

In this way, it's pretty rare to ever get to the point where a tool won't cut anymore.

Modern Steels

Gary B.

Does anyone feel they are sharpening less, or getting better results using any of the modern steels over simple O1? Frankly, I'm not sure my 10+ year old waterstones are up to the challenge of the new steels. I picked up a veritas block plane at the last midwest tool collectors area meet, so I'll find out soon enough..No idea if it's A-2 or even the PVM-11 stuff.

I guess I'm wondering, if you have to sharpen anyways, what's the point?

Re: Modern Steels

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Hi Gary

The local hardwoods I use are very abrasive. They speed up wear, so increasing the longevity of a blade is of interest to me, and consequently I am open to trying out new steels.

One comparison: One of the smoothers I like is a LN #3. The Clifton O1 blade is one of the last of the hammered versions (before they went to a more modern casting style). It is as "old school" as we can get today. Many rave about this blade - how buttery smooth it is. It is indeed a nice blade .... but it will last about a dozen strokes before it is dull.

The standard LN A2 steel is actually quite nice. I hone all my plane blades at 30 degrees, and this A2 does not chip (but then I do not experience any of the chipping that David reports. I am not sure why. Perhaps he notices things that I do not). Anyway, the A2 is a little more effort to hone than the O1, but not significant on either Sigma Power stones or Spyderco ceramic. In performance, the A2 will last at least twice as long as the Clifton.

I am also able to pop in a Veritas PM-V11. It is a little thinner, but with the chipbreaker closed up, the wider mouth is not relevant. The PM steel is about the same overall, possible a little less effort, than the A2 .... A2 steel has this slight resistance when moving on a stone. It feels a little chewie. The PM feels very similar to O1, sliding more smoothly. In action the PM feels like the Clifton, however I will get at least 50% more from it than the A2.

The question is 'is the effort in honing a more advanced steel worth it for the extra longevity?'. There is no point in driving a blade past the point when it becomes a lot of work to bring back to sharp simply because of an aversion/fear of sharpening it. I have a M4 blade in a Stanley #604 and it hones like any other when the appropriate media is used. In this case I use a 600 diamond stone to start, and finish on Spyderco. No big deal. However, and the point is, unless you are prepared to use appropriate media, some of the steels will be too much work to gain the advantages that lie with using them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

What is good? Is good enough good?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

When I began publishing reviews some 10 years ago, there was a focus on comparative testing. While this was helpful in obtaining a context or offering up benchmarks for most to use, it also threatened to sidetrack discussion and conclusions into "which is better, X,Y or Z?".

The reviews I (still) write also attempt to demonstrate the tools in action, and while part of this was intended to show the context of the tool itself, it also showed the method of use in the review. Good or bad (some of the techniques 10 years ago are not what I would advocate today), it also illustrates that results may well change given a change of technique using the tool. (Now I have added a note that readers should check the date of the article to recognise this factor).

It is easy to write "X performed better than Y" and provide the conditions for this. What is still missing is whether X minus Y is actually relevant. For example, in keeping with this thread, is it helpful to you that a Lanthanum blade can last 516 strokes and a Neodymium "only" 300? What if all you need is 200 strokes? And you plan to sharpen the blade before you use it anyway, because that is good practice?

Now I am not referring to the properties of the blades here, that is, the way they cut. However, this is a parallel factor. Is the "feel" with which they cut more important than their longevity? PM-V11 and O1 have a different feel to A2. Is that important? Again context is relevant - the type of wood you work may or may not show this up. Some of the hardwood I use does not seem to show an obvious difference between a high angle (half pitch) smoother and a common angle chipbreakered smoother (inclined to be a little clearer). What differences there are may disappear once a finish is applied. On the other hand, give me softwood to plane, with lower cutting angles, and the different steels can jump out at me. The effects of higher-lower cutting angles (less grain clarity) also show up more easily on softer woods ... but after a finish is applied?

Now some may also just be "destination" types and others in it for the "journey". Does this change your need for one type of planing experience over another.

Whew - lots of parts here. Anyone wish to respond?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Cycling tools

TomD

I bring this up constantly Bill. I talk about how quickly I can cycle tools. Just recently mentioning the point in the diamond thread. The less hassle it is to cycle tools the less time you need wait between sharpenings.

There isn't any one answer. Take planes they are awkward to get at in some cases. In most cases I would sharpen them when they stop doing what I need them to do. This will depend on the tool, material, how fine a cut, to name some points. So a plane taking a 4 tens shaving gets sharpened a lot more often than one taking a 1/16" shaving.

There are tools like head knives and scythes and razors that get sharpened after every cut, or at least really often. I was watching this Gary Cooper film the other day, and he is scything a field. Most of the sequence of the shot is him sharpening the scythe, which is actually pretty much how it is. Not only do they need sharpening, the edges need forming to a fine foil edge pretty constantly.

Re: When there is resistance and push harder.

TomD

Probably true, as I said, when it stops working as I want it to. But the best time to sharpen is before it goes off, but that is more difficult to spot, sometimes.

Re: When there is resistance and push harder.

TomD

So the other thing is to sharpen whenever you notice a difference, doesn't have to be bad. Can't say I do that, but I do do it with tools that are very easy to get at. Head knives are sharpened the moment they start to make a noise cutting the leather. It is easy to hear, but slight. You don't need magical gifts to hear it, but it isn't something one would regard as odd since many materials are pretty noisy when cut, planing for instance. A lot of times that means sharpening with nearly every cut.

Re: Modern Steels

TomD

Derek said it, it is material relative. The reason we have HSS is cutting metals, there you really notice it, and you will prefer carbide in many settings. On wood I find the walkover point on steels where something other than O1 is preferred, or old cast, is maple. Anything up to that is fine with old steels. I have a lot of different tools so I can generally up the tool, but I generally don't I mostly use whatever I prefer on woods up to maple, and just put up with problems if I am working some harder woods. If I just did cherry, pine, walnut, mahogany, I wouldn't need anything more than O1.

sharpening overdue

David Charlesworth

My usual saying is;

"The first time the the thought of sharpening enters your head, it is probably overdue!"

best wishes,

David

Re: Modern Steels

david weaver

Lie Nielsen's irons in A2 have been the best of the A2 irons for me. Years ago when I tested irons, the LN iron chipped the least, even when new. I don't know if that's still relevant now, you never know. But for A2, the amount of chipout makes a great deal of difference in edge life.

Normand, when he did his study, suggested he sees no lines at 28 degrees. I think we're not all looking for the same thing, maybe, as I get tiny lines in everything honed at 28 degrees.

Brian sees what I see, though. A few others have, but I know Brian is very demanding of what he expects for a surface finish. I am not as demanding, but I have good vision and still see the lines in raking light.

Re: Modern Steels

david weaver

Before I really understood what I was doing planing, they were a boon. I was sharpening my smoother irons in a guide with shapton stones (nothing else, just smoothers to have control over the camber) and not taking as heavy of a shaving as I should been taking in pre-final steps.

In that kind of work, you will outlast the iron and wish for longer edge life. I did.

Switching over to dimensioning wood was such an ideal skill builder for using planes that my edge life is more dependent on plane capabilities. I can take more wood off with a wooden try plane than I could with a metal jointer, but without threatening a mark, which leaves smoothing as a very trivial thing. No iron that I have needs to take gobs of thin shavings, which are the first to make a plane seem dull.

I'll respond. Spot on

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Context is everything. Without context information can be irrelevant, confusing, misleading, bewildering and a few other grammatical objects, to someone operating a different woodworking universe.

Context goes both ways, the person providing and the person asking. For example I could have provided more information in my recent questions. My planing needs usually crop up occasionally and often unexpectedly in the course of building stuff. I've got 10 min available before diner to fix the bindy drawer I unexpectedly discovered in its bindy state. I've got a #5 plane to do it with and a blade of unknown condition because I don't remember when I last used this plane nor for how long it has been since I sharpened it. I can sharpen or get the drawer planed. Maybe you all can disassemble, sharpen, reassemble and adjust in less than 5 mine but I can't. If the better steel in this blade enables me to extend the useful life of the edge to get this drawer done before dinner I have received a meaningful benefit. When it finally gets too dull to perform the next unexpected task I'll likely have to grid it. With my grinder and diamonds it matters not what the steel is. Its the same effort, and interruption of work, to get it serviceable again.

Re: Modern Steels

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

Hi Gary and all,

I like high-alloy steel for shooting end grain. M2 or CPM3V; haven't tried LV's new powder metal PMV--it's probably equivalent for the purpose.

Do you hollow grind? If so, I would think your water stones are fine for either A2 or PMV. And they might be anyway. If you don't hollow grind, and if the water stones don't do it for you, I would think about a 1000g Atoma fixed diamond to get a strong primary burr on the A2 or PMV, and go from there with the water stones to hone.

To me, the main thing in any sharpening routine is raising a primary burr fast.

Wiley

Bill. Did you try it?

Ron Harper

Google Two stones and a strop. And try it. Just once. I too was a skeptic

Re: Modern Steels

Brian Holcombe

For a while I was sharpening A2 at 35 degrees to get rid of the eventual lines and may go back to that (not sure why I stopped).

I'm not a fan of A2 just have been too lazy to replace the blades.

A2 disappoints because those lines show up long before the cutting edge is really exhausted and in need of a refresh.

That is an excellent point that many people may not notice the lines or be bothered by the lines that I find disappointing.

I always use two "stones" and a strop

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Where you been during all my diamond sharpening discussions? However, I usually don't bother with the strop as it offers little improvement to 1 micron diamond.

I do grind when the hollow begins to disappear.

Re: I always use two "stones" and a strop

Ron Harper

With this method i do not need to "grind" tge coarse stone is used every time and it keeos tge secondary bdvel from growing

I do not hollow grind. I have a flat primary bevel.

Re: Never had...

david weaver

..never had an issue with beech, ash or hard maple once using the double iron. I did before, but I can't say if it's just because of the double iron or if it has a lot more to do with how much more hand planing I've done since learning the double iron.

I made two planes two years ago with stanley stock blades out of cocobolo. Again, double iron thing again - it's much easier to keep a dulling blade in the cut if you can keep the shaving from breaking.

Several years prior to that, I made several infills out of cocobolo and bois de rose and bought a HSS plane to slash through it. I don't think I'd have dreamed of taking a large shaving off of it.

If I were taking feet of .002" shavings, the HSS iron would win, and cocobolo being very variable by silica content, it would would be many multiples if it's the type where you can literally see sparkling in it after you resaw it. Being able to keep a large shaving together equalizes it, though.

I'm done with planes that aren't carbon steel, they just no longer provide what I thought they'd provide. Same with chisels. Unless you're trimming metal to wood, I just don't see what an alloy chisel has up on a common properly made white 2 japanese chisel or a good english chisel that isn't soft.