Has anyone seen this video? *LINK*

Re: Has anyone seen this video?

James Watriss

I hadn't seen it before... But it's interesting. My ears perked up when he mentioned that the rag drags in a similar way to polishing with shellac. I had the reverse experience... I found that polishing shellac felt a lot like spit-shining my boots when I was in the army.

Good stuff.

(Message Deleted by Poster)

Re: Has anyone seen this video?

William Duffield

As I mentioned during last night's chatroom, I've seen the video, and responded to Kari. I've also watched Don do this in person more than once. The YouTube video does not do justice to the incredible quality of the finish that can be achieved, even starting with a sheet of 4 mm okume right out of the rack, no prior sanding or other preperation.

I haven't used the spit polish, but I have 2 of Don's broomstraw burnishers, one I use plain for burnishing and the other I've used for filling grain on Honduras mahogany table legs with beeswax. I had prepped these with a card scraper. Afterwards, I brushed on shellac, some garnet and some orange, because the original color of the mahogany didn't match on all the legs. Stupidly, I had started with wood from two different trees, but had assumed when I started that I would just make them all brown with burnt umber and a little burnt sienna colors in oil. I will say that filling grain with this method on curved parts is not as easy or as foolproof as a flat table top, but it was an experiment. (My usual practice is not to fill pores on table legs at all.) If you don't get all the wax buildup off the surface before starting with the shellac (not a problem with spit polish) you get a big mess, and then have to strip off the shellac with DNA and strip off the wax with mineral spirits and start over.

This exercise was at a finishing seminar at Don's cabin/barn/shop/school in Highlands county, Virginia. If you get a chance to attend any of Don's classes, I highly recommend it. The setting is unique.

I'd post a photo of a table leg, but we're in the middle of a bunch of thunderstorms, my iMac is shut down and disconnected, and I'm writing on my iPad, and I haven't figured out yet how to post photos from the back porch. When I get back inside, I'll also find the link to photos of the seminar and post it, too.

(Message Deleted by Poster)

Re: Fiber exposure

William Duffield

We had a similar issue with the prototype burnishers that the broom maker delivered on the first day of the seminar. He had wrapped the business end exposing about 5/8" of broomcorn, and had wrapped the other end with zero exposure. Quite a bit of pressure is required, which caused a few straws to break off. We fixed it by whipping an additional half inch of seine twine around the end and sealing it with shellac or aliphatic resin glue. The design was modified by the broom maker for the ones Don is offering now, so that about 3/16" is exposed at each end. That way, I can apply beeswax one end and leave the other end plain, or take a rasp to one end and shape it either convex or concave for better contact with curved surfaces such as cabriolet legs.

Re: Burnishing with pure beeswax...

William Duffield

And that's the problem with polyurinate -- it's refractive index is way too high, which is why it looks like a plastic coating. It totally hoses up the chatoyance of the wood. Shellac and beeswax have a much lower refractive index.

I'll admit I'm a finish bigot

David Barnett

When I see otherwise well-crafted furniture with certain coatings, I'm apt to make strong judgments about that maker's taste based on that alone. I'm mostly Mr. Matte but can tolerate efforts toward the diamantine if done properly and with restraint, but this is too often not the case. Mostly I keep my mouth shut if it isn't something I'd have to live with or see more than once. Not hanging around cheap furniture outlets, managed living facilities or low-end craft shows goes a long way to limiting my exposure, thank God.

Re: Has anyone seen this video? *LINK*

William Duffield

There's a temporary lull in the storms on the Cohansey, and the Bench Dog's downers have kicked in, so here is the promised link to photos of the May event at Don's barn, as his wife calls it, "the world's largest treehouse."

The guy in the Hawaiian shirt is demonstrating traditional "English Polishing" with shellac and mineral oil lubricant. Don Williams, in the black cap and white t-shirt, is demonstrating traditional "French Polishing" or as we call it, spit polish, with beeswax to fill the grain, followed by Johnson's Wax with a water spritz for lubricant. Somewhere in one of the albums, you can find pictures of me working on my mahogany Queen Anne breakfast table.

For burnishing more detailed, carved areas, you may notice people in some of the photos using white sticks. These are boxwood modeling tools, usually used by sculptors in clay. An assortment can be had from Jerry's Artarama. I bought a set of 15, double ended for about $16. You can find them at Michael's. A. C. Moore, etc., as well. If you'd rather make your own from trees in your own woods, dogwood or persimmon work well enough.


Finishing Retreat

Re: More about broomcorn burnishers *LINK*

William Duffield

These are not manufactured from maize (Zea mays), which is the corn you eat, feed to cows and pour into your gas tank. It is sorghum, (Sorghum vulgare var. technicum) and is found in whisk brooms as well as in the pages of Roubo. A lot of it is grown in France, and was introduced to the U.S. by Benjamin Franklin, presumably discovered while he was ambassador to France.


Broomcorn

Re: Has anyone seen this video?

david weaver

I don't think it's something I'd do, but it's interesting to see. I like the look of shellac a little better than burnished beeswax.

Is there a significant disadvantage to just taking a pile of coarse shavings and instead using that to burnish?

I have not done too much in terms of wax-only pieces, just a few, but even burnished, they seem to have a little bit of standing grain after a while (i don't know how long, after a few months maybe?). They still look nice, but they don't feel very nice.

Lightly planed

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I am wondering what was the history of the board before the video starts. He says the mahogany board is "lightly planed". I am just about certain that the term "lightly planed" has not occurred on this forum in the last seven years. Both boards, but the pine especially look quite matte, not what I am used to seeing on planed surfaces.

I used to do a burnish and bees wax finish sometimes around 30 years ago. Pieces that are handled a lot tend to get dirt in the pores ( the wax remains a little sticky).

Re: I didn't hear the lightly planed..

david weaver

...but I did notice the boards were dull looking.

At this point I have kind of written off most things done between planing and finishing as things that are required because the planing was deficient.

I can understand were that the case 200 years ago if a craftsman was doing quick work or did not have proper sharpening equipment (or tools) available, but it should not ever be the case now, and I can't see where it's supposedly infinite dawdling to plane if this is the kind of stuff you have to do to follow planing.

I don't mind shavings on the lathe, though I should be able to get the same clean result with a skew without burnishing (I don't, however, at least not at this point).

Re: Has anyone seen this video? *LINK*

William Duffield

Is there a significant disadvantage to just taking a pile of coarse shavings and instead using that to burnish?

I suppose it depends on how efficient (or obsessive-compulsive) your apprentice is with the broom.

but they don't feel very nice

That's an advantage of "English Polish." Shellac is a much harder finish than wax, even carnauba wax.

The big brown truck can bring any these finishing products to us tomorrow, from Joel, or Woodcraft or Woodworker's Warehouse, but when Roubo was observing and recording trade practice, you needn't have gone further than the Hundred Acre Wood to get your beeswax, while your supply of shellac, or copal or dammar gum, etc., might be delayed by a half a year if your supplier's next shipment had been consigned to the Hesperus.

I think the importance of this research is to understand the finishes we see on old pieces, and how they came to be, and how to treat them when we need to repair or restore them.


Saving Stuff

Re: I think you make a very good point..

david weaver

... and one that the general public doesn't understand, and not just related to furniture.

There seems to be a consensus that 200 years ago, most people knew nothing, as if they were running around trying to pick their noses with their elbows.

But unwrapping the layers usually provides pretty sound reasoning for day to day methods, at least in terms of things that can be easily seen or touched. Some of the medical practices and suspicions are a little off the wall.

Minimalist finishing is for people w/o children

Bill Tindall

In practical situations the function of the finish is to protect as well as enhance. The refractive index of the film as well as its thickness affects appearance, the mechanical and chemical properties of the film determine protection.

My favorite story along these lines was at a SAPFM meeting where many were marveling at a magnificent pie crust table made by a former Cartousch winner. Someone asked how it was finished, as if to reinforce their prejudices for what would be an appropriate finish. The crowd gasped when told it was polyurethane varnish. The explanation, "this is a table we use" . The point is that applied to the same luster and thickness finishes look the same. That "plastic look" disparaged by some is a result of thickness and luster, not the chemical composition of the finish. The choice between varnish, shellac, lacquer is properly based on other properties, not appearance. That said, I finish consistent with the intended use of the piece. I can lay down a conversion varnish that looks like "oil" and it can be washed with soap and water, or lacquer that looks like shellac, etc.

Other than for historical accuracy I can not fathom any practical reason to use a finish that offers as little protection, or lasting attractiveness as wax. In modern times it seems that these minimalist finishes are used more because the builder is not skilled at finishing than that they offer some advantage in performance or looks.

What are your thoughts on Steinway pianos?

Re: Minimalist finishing is for people w/o childre

TomD

Typical overstatement. You are right about a number of things, from people's reasons for using certain products, skills, and also durability. But you are wrong on look, people can tell the difference in look and feel, some times pro or con. To me the biggest disadvantage to the super chemicals is the mess one is left with when they do break down. Natural materials often have certain packages of advantages, edibility, safety, ease of application, ease of refreshing, superior look, application in a dust free environment. Goes for natural glues in somewhat different form.

Another preference is people actually love some of these materials. I remember once trying bees wax as fixed center wax on a turning. It ran the length of the job, and did not smoke or require any more material be added. I had some lattest super chemical grease, and 10 dollars a 4 ounce cup, and it smoked out after a few minutes, just hard to hate bees wax. Certain materials are just kind. Yes I am talking upsell!

On skill I know what you mean, but mastering natural materials is a mixed bag. I think it is a lot easier to shoot just about anything than French Polish. And it is many times more work to FP, and it is more trouble locating all the weird materials. Then you move on to the next, and the next. Once you can shoot you can shoot. Bikes, tables you name it. The only difficult part is the clean-up. Also, it is pretty easy to fix those finishes. The vary first table I made to sell, had a urethane finish on it, for the out of doors. I painted it on, and I rubbed it out. I could have sprayed it if I had had spray. Pretty foolproof.

Now wax is a funny one. I am sorta with you on it, but then you see an English carpenter do it, or Richard Raffan, and in ten seconds he gets a great look, it is ready to go directly to sale. I bought stuff at one of his demos right off the lathe. It still looks fine 20 years later. I don't dust it enough. It is too fancy to eat out of, but I wouldn't be scared to. So how easy it that? Dollops to dollars in a second flat satisfied customers, looks like wood. Holds up for ever, diswasher safe. I have done many pieces that way myself, but he gets just the right touch. Not sticky, etc...

Re:Specifically

TomD

I have made fine furniture for children. I made a small table for them to colour on, the idea being it would be an end table when they were through with it. Initially I thought their crayon marks were fun, and I would just leave them there. But they got disgusting after 20 layers. When they were don. Few passes with the plane, some Watco. Back to showroom. Then unexpected kid 3....

I'll agree on the wax...

John in NM

Doesn't seem like a great idea for anything that will see much handling or use - presumably this is why it seems to be ok for a turned vessel or similar decorative objects. I doubt I would put it alone on a table top though.

However, I can't agree that poly or conversion varnish are the be all and end all of finishing. They certainly can be made to look very good in skilled hands, indistinguishable from oil or whatever. But the end result is the sole point to a process only in commercial work. For many of us here, half the fun is learning some of the antique methods, or perhaps to simply enjoy the application of the finish itself. The only reason I use turpentine for thinning is because I like the smell

Although the sprayed on stuff may be more durable in a technical sense, in use I find oil finishes more forgiving. In use everything gets scratched, dinged, marked, etc. I find scratches much more noticeable on factory furniture than stuff with a nice oil finish. In many cases, another application of oil is trivial and disguises the inevitable blemishes as well as anything. Commercial producers can't expect their customers to do this of course, but I'm talking more about items we make for our own use.

Then there is the learning curve, and the expense of most spray set ups. The single most expensive thing I use in finishing is the oil itself. Even though my first efforts were not as good as later ones, they were certainly acceptable - the learning curve with oil is a gentle one.

I'll stick to oils and shellac, occasionally some poly from a can. Nothing wrong with conversion varnishes and the like, they're just not for me.

A bit confused...

John in NM

Is the guy in the vid suggesting what we've called French polishing for say, 150 years (guessing), somehow not really French polishing?

I'm afraid I dislike revisionism, so I find it a bit hard to give the vid much of a chance.... that and I don't think there's anything I would be inclined to finish with wax alone. It does look easy enough though, sure can't beat the drying time

Re: I'll agree on the wax...

TomD

"Doesn't seem like a great idea for anything that will see much handling or use - presumably this is why it seems to be ok for a turned vessel or similar decorative objects. I doubt I would put it alone on a table top though."

RR's bowls are users also. I assume the wax, and oil diminish from the first washing. But they do seem to have a fair range of uses. I think he expects the used ones to carry on as bare wood, or oiled wood, while the others are polished till very little remains on the surface so they aren't sticky.

I think this whole process could be accelerated with power buffing. Hand buffing bee's wax, is a pretty arduous task, particularly if you don't know to scrape it first.

Re: Lightly planed

TomD

I assumed the plane to the side had been used to plane the board. The shavings are fairly coarse as far as finishing ones go.

French Polish

Warren in Lancaster, PA

What Don is doing is polishing and apparently a French technique from Roubo. However Don does not actually call it French polishing. Generally we think of French polish as a spirit varnish applied with a pad.

In the last few decades some have suggested that the term French polish be limited to the techniques of one man who was active in Paris in the 1930's. However there have long been many styles and different techniques.

More or less what I'd figured...

John in NM

The craftsman in the vid is not necessarily responsible for the title on youtube, it just struck me that calling this wax technique "true French polishing" was a bit misleading