Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

Which stones?

Schtoo

You took your #1000 and #6000 waterstones and used them to sharpen your chisel.

Ok.

Which 'waterstones'?

Which 'waterstones' were being used in the video you saw?

I hate to break this to you (and anyone else), but just because it's a 'waterstone' or 'ceramic stone' or 'oilstone' doesn't mean much. They're all different, they all behave differently and while you can often get away with common technique with all of them and get a good result, some need some particular tweaks to technique to get the best out of them.

It'd be like comparing a Corolla (likely what you have) to a Ferrari (what I have), sure they're both cars but that's about the only common trait they have.

Don't forget that some waterstones are very easy to use and very forgiving, and some are not. Also that some folks who sharpen with them can make them do anything they want and some folks can't manage to get along with them at all.

Stu.

Hida 1000 and King S3 6000

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

TomD

For a wide variety of tools the Leonard Lee video is good. Maybe there is some stuff on the LV site.

for chisels it can be hard to keep them indexed by hand. Using a jig is a good thing. Unfortunately sometimes the Japanese chisels don't fit all the jigs. I am a big believer in jigless sharpening, but I own a few jigs and use them for a variety of things. When you are learning, they are like training wheels. You can try to sharpen a chisel first by hand, if it doesn't work out you can switch to the jig. Often you can retouch an edge a few times but then the chisel looses a little shape, and the jig will help you get back. So I see it as a teaching and continuity guide for learners.

The basic deal is to sharpen it long enough on your 800 that you get a burr on the back, across the whole edge. The remove that by rubbing the back flat on your finishing stone long enough to loose the burr. Sharpen the bevel on your finishing stone until you get a burr, then remove that, and go back and forth a bit. Should be razor sharp.

The LV jig has one feature that will help a beginner, or anyone. There is a knob that will allow you to steepen the angle by a degree. So once you have your burr on the 800, you go up one degree, and you hone at that angle. It is a great version of the micro bevel, because it is so slight it does not affect edge geometry, or make the 800 step difficult to index. Again, I prefer not to be jig Dependant, but they have their place.

Almost all problems that result in no edge, once you have the right gear, are related to not getting the job done. The one way you can know you got the job done is if after working a grit you have a full width burr. As you gain experience you will not need so much feedback, but it is an easy way to know what is up. If you sharpen free hand, and do not raise a burr or get an edge, something was wrong. Maybe you where off angle, or the geometry is dubbed, etc...

One way to get better edge registration when you do not have a jig is to work the tool sideways, since normally there is more bearing in that direction. Dubbing occurs for gross errors, but it also happens when you micro tip the chisel due to it hanging as you start to move it. This is where the lateral move on the stone reduces some problem.

Practice!

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

TomD

By the way, 800-6000 is a big jump, and I think the King 8000 stone is a hair popper. I don't tend to be as happy with the 6000. But my version may no longer be typical. I use 4 stones in a bucket for my jobber kit. two king 800s, a middle stone, I forget which one it is. Probably a Norton 4000 or a Lobster 2000 And the 8000. However you should be able to get a razor sharp edge. razor sharpness is not a single point of destination though. Also you probably would not need a middle stone if you were using the LV jig.

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

To emphasise a couple of points that Tom made:

Step one is to grind the primary bevel until you raise a wire edge (burr) on the back of the blade. This ensures that you have intersected the face with the back. If you do not do this, then all subsequent work just ends with a polished non-intersection edge, which is round. This will never become sharp, no matter how high a polish you achieve.

With all subsequent grits you will again concentrate on the face and the wire edge (I remove the wire edge after each stone with a couple of careful swipes on the polishing stone). On the face you need to remove the scratches of the preceding grit, and on the back you feel for the wire edge that informs you that you are working to the intersection.

To achieve step one we may begin with a grinder, or we use a coarse stone (it depends on how much steel needs to be removed).

Step two is to hone out the scratches of step one. However you first have to decide whether you will use a secondary bevel or work the face. On Japanese blades one traditionally works the full face - no secondary bevel and no hollow grind. However it should be pointed out that this method suits some who is freehand honing. This is difficult to do on a honing guide. If you plan to use a honing guide, then I see no reason why you cannot use a secondary bevel on Japanese blades. Keep it small.

This is not as much work as one might imagine to work the full face since most of the bevel is made up of soft iron. There is only a narrow lamination of hard steel.

As Tom suggests, a side-to-side motion aids builds on the longer registration of a wider blade. Harrelson Stanley has an excellent video on this method, which he helped popularise.

Grinding on a waterstone is more typically done on a 800-1000 waterstone. Honing is completed on a 3000-5000, and polishing on a 6000-12000. As Stu notes, there is not only a wide range of grits available, but some makes work faster than the same grits of others stones, and you can get can get grits to 30000. I consider the Kings good stones for starting out with O1-type blades. They are softer and more forgiving. I recall getting excellent edges from my Gold 8000. The downside is that the ones I had wore quickly and required more frequent flattening. So flatten the stones after each blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

David Charlesworth

The only difficult part of sharpening is establishing a flat (or slightly hollow) polished back, in the beginning.

Most of the Japanese chisels I have bought come with a slightly convex or bellied back due to being prepared on a stone which has been allowed to wear hollow.

Sharpening is one of those skills which is much easier to learn face to face. However I will mention that I have two DVDs on the subject which I was very pleased with.

Best wishes,

David Charlesworth

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

david weaver

If I was a startup, I would go with David Charlesworth's video. You can modify method later if you want, but someone loaned me the sharpening video (plane blade one) that charlesworth did right before I started woodworking, and the very first edge I ever got was sharp.

I used a king 800 and a king 6000 like you're using. You should be able to get a good edge with them if you do things right.

What you can do to make the edge exceed what it should from that stone is allow the surface to dry out or wipe the water off of it and then work one spot with your chisel, as it glazes, it will cut finer.

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

Texchappy

Ok, found the David Charlesworth video. The big advantage to the Harrelson Stanley video is that it's cheap and easily available. So, and meaning no disrespect to anyone, is the Charlesworth video worth the wait and $21 more than the Stanley?

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

david weaver

I have seen both. Presuming the harrelson stanley video is for side sharpening, I think charlesworths video is more beneficial to you for two reasons:

1) I thought it was a bit easier to get dead on the first time you try it (better for beginners, you should be able to get shaving sharp on the first try)

2) the guide that you buy to do charlesworth's method is $10-$15. Harrelson's sharp skate is not something I understand the value proposition for, because it's not been mass produced to get it into a price range where it would make sense.

Re: Good guy but sharp as a bowling ball

david weaver

Btw...if you get the charlesworth video, i'm sure after you watch it a few times, you could still get $15 for it from someone else. Maybe someone here has it and will offer it to you. I borrowed it from a buddy, so I don't have a copy.

Can you link me to the Charlesworth

Texchappy

I found a Charlesworth video on Lie-Nielson's site for $25, where is it $15? Can you link it for me?

Re: Can you link me to the Charlesworth

david weaver

I would buy it from crafstmanstudio if LN doesn't ship it for free, it's still $25, but that's what the price is period, shipping and all.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/AV3-D.htm

What I meant is that once you watch it, I'd imagine you can sell it for $15 easily, and shipping a DVD is cheap - like $1.50 or something first class mail, so:

* it makes no sense to pay someone much of anything to ship it (i can't tell if LN charges to ship it, they won't tell you the total if you don't give them a credit card number) - craftsmanstudio ships free, anyway

* it won't cost you much to ship it if you sell it

(Message Deleted by Poster)

Charlesworth it is then

Texchappy

Ok, I'll get the Charlesworth video. Just need to wait just a bit because my wife noticed how much I'm spending - d'oh.