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Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

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Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#1

Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

Bill Tindall, E.TN

>Someone just asked me off line about how long it took to make the bed whose PIC I posted earlier. It took 15 years- 14 3/4 to get the courage to try it and the rest to do it. I see something I like and then I fret for years over whether I can make something "that complicated". In the end I pull it off with some measure of success. And in the end there was way more fretting than working.

Things like this Forum or the SAPFM meeting I recently attended have been a big help in getting up my courage to try to make things that stretch my abilities. Once I see that mortals CAN make these things it gives me hope to try. Of course along the way there are people willing to help with the details, like drilling bed bolt holes.

Had I always been isolated from other woodworkers much better than myself I would still be making case work about as complicated (and attractive) as a kitchen cabinet.

Are others drug along (inspired) by exposure to woodworkers doing more advanced work than themselves? If so things like this Forum, meetings, clubs and publications-none of which were available 30-40 years ago - will have a big impact on the quality of woodworking in this next generation.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#2

Re: Mentoring

Dave Mount

>Hi Bill--

I'd put this under the broad category of "mentoring," recognizing that mentoring doesn't always take the form of someone physically standing there looking over your shoulder. I think it's critical.

About 20 years ago I was at a stage where I had built a few projects (with power tools), but had never made a dovetail joint, and had set my sights on doing that. I had a friend that made furniture professionally, so I decided to milk him for some opinions on what router-based dovetail jig I should buy. He just shrugged and said he didn't have one, he just cut them by hand -- "it's faster anyhow, unless you've got a whole kitchen full of drawers to do," he said. This really set me on my heels -- he could just as well have suggested that I just walk to the moon, it was so far out of my self-perceived realm. In my mind or the time, it was only woodworking savants that cut dovetails by hand. I stewed about that for quite a while, then one night I was between projects and did what most of us here probably did, just took a couple pieces of scrap birch, laid out some dovetails, grabbed a saw, and cut them. Not exactly pretty, but surprisingly serviceable and not actually that difficult (a significant rush). Things got rapidly better with practice, but the point is, the idea that I wasn't (and probably wouldn't ever be) skilled enough to hand cut dovetails was utter nonsense and a completely self imposed limitation.

Those were the days before the Internet explosion, which has been a huge boon in terms of finding out what other folks are doing. I've since moved to northern Minnesota, and I don't know anyone up here that's much into topics like those discussed on this board. As I became interested in hand tool techniques, this and other internet resources were a primary source of the guidance (and inspiration) I needed to get my feet wet (and more). Although I also learned some important things from some books, even the selection of those books as high quality resources came primarily from recommendations from discussion boards.

Another thing that the boards provide is access to some of the more arcane details, things that not enough people do or are interested in to warrant a publisher releasing a book. The idea that I could make a plane, or a marking knife, or a handsaw was not even something I had ever considered until I became aware of what others were doing. And one of the really cool things about the boards is that you not only have access to people who really know what they're talking about, but you also read about the experiences of people who are just learning about something. Relative to your (Bill's) original thesis, I think these posts are incredibly enabling, because it's direct evidence that someone like you can do those things. You can not only get friendly expert advice, but also input from someone that perhaps just learned what you are learning -- and those people sometimes have a different perspective than experts that may have partially forgotten what it was like when they didn't have all the experience they now have. In fact, I'm always concerned that posts of the exquisite work done by some here will discourage others from posting pics and stories from wherever they are on the learning curve. The thing you have to teach may not be the ultimate "how-to" as much as just convincing someone that they should give something a try.

And, of course, the boards give you a chance to show what you're doing to someone less likely to think you're nuts.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that being something of an island up here, the internet is like a lifeline to the larger world of woodworking; I can hardly imagine how much more limited my experience and skills would be if I didn't have it as a source of "mentoring."

Best,

Dave

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#3

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

Hank Knight

>Bill,

I agree with everything you and Dave Mount said. His and your experiences are similar to mine. I've been woodworking in some form or another for 50 years. Until I found Wood Central several years ago, I didn't know any woodworkers, so I enjoyed my hobby in isolation. My skills, such as they were, were pretty stagnant and largely restricted to working with power tools. Like you, much of my effort was devoted to fretting over what I could or could not accomplish, and whether I should even try. I suffered from "analysis paralysis." I spent most of my time thinking about it rather than doing it.

This board and several others have been an inspiration and a great motivator for me. I have learned much from you guys (and gals), but the most important thing I've learned is that this stuff isn't rocket science and ordinary folks like me can do pretty respectable work with a little patience and practice. I'm actually getting things done these days, and my skills and confidence have both taken a giant leap forward, thanks to the knowledge that is so generously shared on this board. I'm no longer intimidated by a seemingly complicated project - especially one that involves hand work - and I've learned that doing it is more fun than thinking about it.

Also, like Dave, the Internet has opened up new avenues of related interest. Until recently, it would never have occurred to me to make my own tools. But I've done that sucessfully to my great surprise and delight, and I now have a half dozen tool projects floating around in my head. All I need is the time.

In summary, while I didn't have a woodworking mentor and I don't have a woodworking buddy next door, I find great companionship and inspiration here. You guys and gals have broadened my woodworking horizons immeasuraby and increased my enjoyment of this hobby many fold. I thank you truly and heartily for that.

Hank

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#4

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Hi Bill, With me, courage has never been a problem. Discretion, common sense, caution, and cool reflection are entirely different matters. I've always gone on the attitude that if you aren't failing you aren't trying things that are difficult enough. Even when I fail I learn a good bit, and my failures have given me the groundwork for future successes. I have also found that mistakes or failures are usually salvagable and can turn out quite nice in the end.

As for mentoring and encouragement, our NH guild believes strongly as an article of faith that all of us from the rankest beginner to the most seasoned pro have both something to learn from others and something to teach to others. Before I found our guild, I worked and learned from books, mistakes, the occasional NYW episode, from magazines. Learning from live people in real time is so much better, faster, and enjoyable. The internet has become the icing on the cake.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#5

Bill!

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>I didn't understand from the original thread that you MADE that bed. I heard something about it was from Virginia. Could you please pull that picture up here again, I have a couple of questions about it. It's fabulous!

Thanks, Wiley

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#6

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Asolutely Bill, and I can easily echo exactly what Dave, Hank, and Dave have said. By the way Hank--good to see you, seems you've been a stranger lately, and I am very pleased to hear that you're getting in some shop time. Do beware of falling anvils tho, even small ones can hurt. ;~)

I do blame the various forums I've been associated with for getting me a bit sidetracked off of my initial interests, BUT!!!, that is not meant as any type of slam towards the forums. I can say, and have said many times, that these forums have truly changed my Life, as before them I was very isolated and at times felt that I was the only crackpot interested in handtool woodworking. One a daily basis in the real World I keep a very small circle of friends, which is fine by me as either most folks think I'm a complete buffoon, or I think that most people are complete idiots, so either way I don't associate with many of them. However, it is this Forum where I have many many many friends that has really opened up my World and for that I am truly grateful. The tons of Knowledge and Inspiration gained here takes a distant second.

T.O.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#7

OK, I found it

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>Bill,

Can you give us a little context on this bed. The style? When does it date from? Where is the original? Were you able to photograph it up close, or make sketches, in order to recall the turning details for the spindles?

Wiley


img

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#8

Absolutely yes

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>There's a lot of research that shows that children learn best when the expectations are just at the upper extremity of their abilities - and sometimes beyond. Our younger son, who refused to learn to read until he was in second grade (although, interestingly, he could spell phonetically at four - but when he got in school, he rebelled against the pressure and expectations), then progressed from nothing to beyond grade level in a few months with the help of McGuffey readers, first published over a century ago. I was struck, at the time, by the assumption on the part of the McGuffey reader folks that children could handle near-adult material in terms of vocabulary. That assumption pulled him along.

My advanced work has been more fantasy than reality in recent years, due to work and family pressures, but my understanding of what quality work looks like is informed at a serious level by several magazines (Pop WW and Woodwork principally - FWW has lost its way) and by this forum.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#9

I'm dragged along to try,

Chuck Nickerson

>but inhibited to show. The inspiration comes in the oddest ways. I'm about to try (for the fourth time) to sharpen without jigs. The attitude of the no-jig people bugs me, but after Bill T's last post I'll try again.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#10

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

Edward inVancouver

>I have been lurking on this site and make the odd post for some time. I don't have a mentor though I have struck up an aquaintance with some of the members on this site.

Some of my earliest memories were of my Dad on a very lousy tablesaw making, uh, rudimentary furniture, and I did the highschool shop thing, but at that time, the early '80's, hand tools were pretty much a 4 lettered word, at least in highschool.

The paradigm shift was about 5 years ago in a doctor's office when my reading choices were women's magazines or the Lee Valley catalouge. A lot of information to digest, I never knew that layout tools existed or how to use them, never knew about sharpening, thought that hand planes had long been replaced by electric ones, and that "finishing" was a choice between gloss or satin polyurathane. That catalouge got me off to the library where I got my sticky fingers on wood working magazines and books, particularily Kirby's. So far the most involved piece of work I've done is my own workbench, but alot of smaller projects are starting to add up. My only gripe is that I tend to rush things sometimes, and no matter how carefull I am with layout, I still make errors

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#11

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

paul womack

>And in the end there was way more fretting than working.

Although (just to put the opposite view) I'd bet that the fretting involved putting careful thought into design and construction questions; thought that probably made the (eventual ... ) build go easier.

BugBear

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#12

I used to put things off ... and some philosophy

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>I used to take a long time to get around to things. My experience was then much like yours. Once I got going, I found it wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought, and that my skills were better than I was giving myself credit for. These days, I've tried to really get into the spirit of just diving into a project, whether I think I can do it or not (generally just for myself, if someone is paying, I like to know that I can do it).

I recently built a toolbox for my wife (pics to follow after finishing). It is the first time I ever dovetailed anything by hand except for practice on a few scraps. Are my joints perfect? Absolutely not. Truck drivers would have an easy time getting through some of them. Will the box come apart? Probably never. The point here is that I would normally have put something like this off until I thought I was ready to handle it. Well, I just did it, and when I was done I found out I could handle it. Especially with hand tools, so many things we do are a matter of acquiring muscle memory, and the best way to do that is by making stuff.

Now, please nobody beat me up for this next bit, but I think that people like Norm, Cosman, etc are actually hurting the woodworking community a bit. I don't think it's any fault of their own, but many people lose sight of the fact that what they do is the goal to achieve and that it might be a long road there. We should not expect to have to practice dovetails on scraps for 5 years before making our first project with the joint. I like the returning idea (thanks Adam and others) of perfection where necessary. I find Roy Underhill refreshing because he isn't flawless in everything he does, but everything still turns out OK. Dick Proenekke was the same way (he built the cabin in Alaska, oft featured on PBS)

Now, I'm not saying if all you have is a rusty saw that you should go try to build a Dutch Highboy by hand. We do have to know our limits at time. But hey, if your really ingenious, try it. One of my teachers told me to always try things that seemed just out of reach. I'm finding that's a good way to keep me progressing and it gets rid of the "I can't do that yet" attitude. If your really unsure of your abilities, maybe work in pine first instead of some exotic and expensive wood.

The other thing is, surprisingly, nobody else ever seems to notice my mistakes which are glaringly obvious to me. Let your self criticism guide you, but not stop you.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#13

That reminds me ...

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Of a joke by Mitch Hedburg. Every book is a childrens book if the kid can read. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Harry Potter books were written at a higher reading level than the average newspaper.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#14

No doubt this suggestion is correct

Bill Tindall, E.TN

>

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#15

Re: I used to put things off ... and some philosop

Jerome Bias

>Thanks for the reminder. the first thing that I ever (ever) built was a king size four posted bed, with a canopy. I cringe to think of some of the mistakes that I made in making the thing, but it got me started.

Now that I am a bit better I find myself holding back, waiting for my skills to improve. Thanks for the reminder to drop some of the self criticism and watch for the unexpected spurts of growth.

Jerome B.

Mebane, NC

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#16

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahea

Ernie Miller

>almost timely? I have been working on a table for about five years now I have sketches up on the shop wall I have the wood all picked out. I even have gone so far as to make some cut patterns. but I still have not made a single cut. just in the last couple weeks I have drug out the original sketches and cleaned off the work bench. but I am still waiting to make that first cut. I can visulize it but the saw is not in my hand. this project will be a streach if my abilities. Yes Todd O it is the three sisters's table

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#17

Re: I used to put things off ... and some philosop

Ernie Miller

>You know what I did that once back in the seventies but I cheated it was for a watterbed. I bought turned pourch post and bolted them to the frame. I then cut holes for closet rods to run between the post every thing was stained to match the frame it looked OK good to some people. I then macrameed the canopy I tied two knots wrong in the middle of the head drape and it drove me nuts after a couple years of looking at it that was all I could take and burned the damn thing. no one els could find the problem but for some reason it bothered me. I have colmed down sins then and thisgs don't rattle me I guess it's cause I have never made any thing perfect and just accept that next time it will be better

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#18

Re: I used to put things off ... and some philosop

Steve Hamlin

>This brings to mind my tabla (indian drum) teacher. He was a wonderful old gent, who, naturally, taught in the eastern style where every stroke had to be mastered (note: not perfected) before moving to the next.

One day, I had been practicing one particular stroke for about an hour, when he looked up at me, grinned, and said, 'Is b****y drum - HIT IT!'

From this I gathered I must have got 'close enough' to move on.

The point is that we can dither about, worrying about minor imperfections in the detail, ignorant that we may indeed be ready to move on to the next step.

Or we can just get on and try it - even a mucked up component has given valuable practice *and* insight into what-not-to-do which early success does not.

My first mandolin took eighteen months to complete. In the process, I blew up one set of back plates and made a neck that was too short - but valuable lessons were learned and hands on tool time gleaned from both. Much of the time was spent dithering - maybe I should read one more authority on how to cut x, or layout y. In the end I just needed to make sawdust.

Of course that instrument has faults, but overall the result was good. Remember that *you* notice every shortcoming because *you* spent hours agonising over it during construction. As a reality check, I find it good to look at high end work close up - there's almost always something not quite right.

Cheers

Steve

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#19

I used to put things off, now I procrastinate alot

Marv

>

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#20

I was going to join Procrastinaters Anon.

Neal in San Jose

>But I never got around to it.

Re: Courage- warning philisophical discussion ahead

#21

Re: I used to put things off ... and some philosop

James Watriss

>This whole thread is refreshing.

Absolutely! to everything I've been reading. I don't know about skills improving, I think the level of the finished work is always a step behind what a woodworker can do. And there's no shame in doing amateur work. Noone steps out as a master right away.

The hard thing is to look at a finished piece and know that if you had to do it again, it would be better. But you still have to live with the thing you built. Sure, you may have learned a lot along the way, but the mistakes are still there to show that you weren't as skilled when you started the piece as you were when you wrapped it up. Somehow, you never really see the joints that are well executed, becuase they're done right, and don't draw attention to themselves. That's the worst thing about a well designed piece. You have to work very, very hard, to make sure the the work you do doesn't get noticed. It makes the learning curve really hard. Not to mention the fact that the pinnacle of your skill right now is still going to be represented in the worst aspects of your next piece. And so on, and so on, as you continue to learn.

So many people start out with this wonderful vision of how they think a project will turn out... mostly because all the magazines have convinced us that their sponsors' tools will get us there, and make it all "easy."

What a crock of sh!t.

Bravo to anyone who's got the sack to do a piece to the best of their ability, whatever ability they have. Even if the finished piece isn't quite everything they hoped for, it's a finished piece of work. Doesn't matter how bad it is... because those people are the ones learning, and making progress. And the naysaying, amateur-work bashing, armchair quarterbacks can suck it.

A good amateur piece is proof positive that someone actually went to the mountain. And even if they come back humbled, they can say that they went. And if they go back again... well, all the better.

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