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*** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

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*** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#1

Ellis Walentine

*** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

Ellis Walentine

>Actually, we're really late with this one, folks, so if the question amuses you, don't wait to reply.

As most of you know, every couple months, around the middle (the ides, actually) of the month, we post a momentous question regarding woodworking and/or woodworkers. We distill the replies and forward them to Woodworker West magazine for publication in the next issue. You can read some of our previous compilations in the "News & Views" department to your left.

This month's question has to do with real-world, income producing woodworking. We all know that hobbyists don't have many constraints (time, cost, resources needed) compared with woodworkers who rely on their skills to make a living. Here's the question...

What concessions, if any, do you professional woodworkers make on paying jobs or commissions that you wouldn't make if you had all the time in the world? And, a related question for you non-professionals: If you had to do your woodworking for a living, how do you think your approach would differ?

Post your replies here and we will harvest them next week for News & Views. Thanks for your help!

Ellis Walentine, Host

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#2

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>FYI, the 15th was the Ides of May, but the Ides of June will be on the 13th. The rule is the Ides falls on the 15th in months with 31 days, but on the 13th in all other months (Feb, Apr, Jun, Sep, Nov). I just didn't want you to be late again next month :^)

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#3

When I was at school, ...

Kevin F, New Zealand

>we learned this ditty:

"In March, July, October, May,

The Ides fall on the 15th day"

This gives a slightly different result to your rule, William.

Cheers

Kevin

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#4

Ellis Walentine

Tardiness....

Ellis Walentine

>...is next to godliness. I knew the Ides didn't always fall on the 15th, but I wasn't ambitious enough to go back and look it up again.

You're tough, Wm. :-)

Ellis

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#5

Kalends, Nones & Ides

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Is that not the same as Sir Wm.'s rule?

I looked it up, and the reference says it works like this:

Kalends (1st day of the month)

Nones (the 7th day in March, May, July, and October; the 5th in the other months)

Ides (the 15th day in March, May, July, and October; the 13th in the other months)

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#6

Ides

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I looked it up, and, evidently, you posted on the Kalends of June.

Today is III Nones of June.

Got to love that Roman calendar!

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#7

Not the same, I think

mike recchione

>Sir William's rule would put the ides of January, August and December on the 15th; yours and Kevin's would put it on the 13th. It would be interesting to know how these and other complex and seemingly arbitrary conventions of measurement and terminology came into being.

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#8

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Ron in Kokomo

>Never having been a professional.... I am only guessing here but I would guess that the answer would lie somewhere in the finishing of the piece. Anyhere from the fussiness of final surface prep to the almost unending process of applying, rubbing out, re applying... etc of the finish.

I very strongly prefer an oil varnish mix that I was taught by Brian Boggs. After I think the piece is ready to finish.... I'll sand to 400 grit.... then I'll raise the grain and do it again. Then I'll burnish the surface with burlap or plane shavings. I'll then put on 5 or six coats of an oil/varnish mix.... adding wax to the 7th and 8th coat. Waiting a day between coats and buffing after every third coat. If I was depending on my work to pay the mortgage... I'm not sure I could do that???

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

#9

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

mike recchione

>What would I do differently if I had to make my living doing woodworking?

1a) I'd probably have to use power tools - this would involve a total re-education. OR

1b) I'd have to get real good at marketing and learn to convince people that it's a privilege for them to pay top dollar for slow, sloppy work. Say Adam, where'd you get that nifty outfit? :-)

2) I'd probably have to get many more projects past the planning stage. (That's where a lot of mine get stuck nowadays - afterall, once the concept and the design are done, the rest is just implementation. Or maybe I could just outsource that part :-) ).

3) My family and I would have to learn to live without food, clothing, healthcare and shelter.

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#10

Re: *** SURVEY: THE IDES OF MAY ***

Greg B�tit, Vergennes, VT

>If I were doing woodworking professionally I would be making chairs. Rectilinear pieces like the cabinetry and tables that my wife and children request would therefore not clobber my schedule. I wouldn't have to feel guilty about making spoons or just sharpening something because I was procrastinating from mortising 8 rule joint hinges, for example.

I thoroughly enjoy making spindles, turning undercarriage pieces, and saddling seats. I don't enjoy finishing furniture or weaving seat bottoms (for ladderbacks). If I were a professional chairmaker, would have to either teach myself to like these things or farm them out. If it became necessary to add other types of furniture to my offerings, I would have to learn to like "linear" joinery (to play on Eric Hedberg's coinage).

Making oneself like something may sound peculiar, but when you're building something for sale, the compensation mix greatly affects how you think about doing something. And there is the possibility, given the incentive, that you can re-evaluate a given task with the outcome that your perspective on something formerly seen as unenjoyable has changed. I learned this trick after a couple years of mediocre academic performance. If I could trick myself into being interested in the material, studying was not difficult. Not easy to do, but you're a big time winner if you can get there.

To me the ideal goal with respect to how one feels about his occupation is best expressed by this Zen Buddhist text: "The master in the art of living makes little distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recognition, his love and his religion. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him he is always doing both."

Not easy to do, but you're a big time winner if you can get there.

Greg -not anywhere near there. Yet.

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#12

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Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Well Ellis, this is my take on the subject. IF ai where to go pro I'd make my line of "products" and that would be that. If folks want them, fine, if not that's fine too. I'd have to fiqure out at what price I needed to charge for each piece in the line to keep myself going, and still make it affordable to my clent base. How S. Maloof can get $10,000 for a sinle chair I'll never know, but he can, and I'm happy for him.

What I'm basically saying is, NO Custom Work on a regulat basis. If you want to commission me to do a piece it would have to be on my time schedule and my price.

Things I'd like to build if I where to go pro would be Grandfather/mother clocks, Hutches,and small side tables such as Huntboards and candlestick tables.

Maybe I'm getting old and cranky, but I'll be darn if I get myself into a situation where I'm on a deadline ever again. Here's my line of products, take it or leave it. Seems to me that fella's like Maloof and T. Moser have that mindset and are doing alright. Even T. Lie-Nielsen making tools is doing alright, and I don;t think that he is jumping thru hoops to make a custom tool to a deadline.

Todd O.

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#13

Scott, buscuits..........

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>are for EATING! They go good with baked beans on Saturday nights.

Even Ol' Norn has learned to pass on the woodworking biscuits (can't imagine him passing over the other kind) as over time they "ghost" thru.

Todd O.

Thinking that if Ol' Norm is anything like me, than they don't do any NYW filming on Sundays after a Saturday Night feed of biscuits and beans. ;~)

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#14

I thought Norm loved em...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I havn't watched him in years. He seemed realy into them. The only biscuts I like come with sausage gravy...yummy...

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#15

Steve Kubien

If time was money...

Steve Kubien

>A jointer and thickness planer, a compund mitre saw, a pocket hole jig (like a Kreg) and an Akeda dovetail jig would definately be involved.

Steve Kubien

PS...Oh yeah, and a coffee maker and washroom in the shop.

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#16

Right you are!

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>

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#17

Time is money

Warren in PA

>I have none of the tools that Steve mentions in the previous post, but that washroom in the shop sure sounds nice!

I have been a professional for 18 years and was an amateur for about 15. I still use the tools and techniques I used as an amateur and I work to the same standards. The biggest difference is that now I make what others want me to make. I sometimes go long periods without working my favorite wood or making something purely for my own pleasure.

When I think of buying a new tool I am thinking things like: How much time to get it in shape? How long until I am comfortable and efficient with it? How often will I use it?

As a professional you have to put limits on what you do (I once told a doctor " You don't operate on turtles and I don't operate on plywood" ,but some work may come in that you had never envisioned doing.

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#18

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R.J.Whelan

>Ellis ... this may not all be useable, but maybe there are a few useful bits:

First, let me state that I am a full-time professional furniture maker, so my opinions are informed by the demands of the profession.

Amateur/Hobbyist vs. Professional

As a hobbyist your only financial concern may be to simply recover the cost of materials and the occasional new tool. This is fine, and it�s certainly your right to price your work accordingly, but here�s the rub: when your work is displayed beside that of a professional who has bills to pay, kids to feed and health insurance premiums (believe me, a lot of furniture makers don�t have health insurance), there is going to be a big price disparity. Many hobbyists produce work that is every bit as fine as the best professional; the only difference being the professional may produce the work more quickly. Now, as a consumer, if you�re offered two similar products (and the style of either is acceptable), you are going to choose the less expensive piece every time. So the professional, with all of the previously mentioned financial burdens, is going to miss a sale. Morally there�s nothing wrong with this scenario; it is pointed out as informational fodder to consider. Believe me, if you make the move from hobbyist to professional, you will hate to see your retailer accepting work from non-professionals, work that will sell for far less than your price.

Figuring Wholesale Cost

Cost of Goods � You have to keep good, accurate records. If you buy cherry for $4/ft and then buy some more for $2/ft and then use your $4 cherry to build a desk you have to remember that your cost for that piece is $4/ft. I generally pencil the cost on each board and then keep track of what I use.

Mark-up � There are, basically, two ways to approach this:

� Multiply your cost of goods by some factor � for instance 1.33; most people think this is a 33% mark-up but it�s actually 25% - this method is called �profit on cost�

� The better method is to divide your cost by the reciprocal of your desired profit (profit on selling price)

� Example 1: $10.00 X 1.33 = $13.33 (selling price)

� Example 2: $10.00 / .67 = $14.93 (selling price)

Labor � Figure our how much you want/need to make per hour and keep accurate time records of how much time you spend designing, building and finishing. Don�t forget the time spent chasing material and delivering the finished piece.

Other cost factors: � Keep in mind there is going to be a fair amount of paperwork involved in even a one-man shop: invoicing; general ledger entries; income tax; resale tax report; county and city property and inventory tax reports. I have found that adding one hour of labor for every thousand dollars (selling price) is reasonably accurate.

Commission � Depending where you live and how well known you are (locally) you are going to pay commission on sales through a gallery; where I live this can range from 25-50%. Most galleries won�t have a problem if you just tell them how much you want to �net� from the sale.

The Competition

If your work is carried in a gallery or store along with other craftsman you have to decide whether you want to compete on price (don�t) or try to establish a pricing niche where there is some distinct price differential between your work and that work most similar to yours (it�s OK to be higher). If you price your work too high there are positives and negatives to consider: profit per sale will be good; sales will be slower; and, you may sell so slowly that the gallery won�t want to give you premium floor space.

Doing Shows

Before you commit to doing a show make sure that your retail sales locations don�t have a problem with represented craftsman doing the show � most will object. Be sure you can build enough inventory to make doing the show worthwhile. Remember that you�re going to lay out cash for materials and spend hours building that may not have a payback for several months. I do one show per year and typically start building inventory 8 month in advance; I try to have six to eight pieces at the show and hope to sell half of what I take and hopefully take at least 3-4 orders for custom pieces based on what I had at the show. I have a friend who does one show per year and does $35-40,000 in three days (dining table and four chairs - $12,000; very high style) � this is the major part of his year; my experience has not been as good, but generally good enough to keep me going back.

Advertising

As a minimum you�ll probably want a yellow page ad in your area. I run a small newspaper ad that runs for four consecutive weeks each quarter. This ad costs me $120 (really small ad), but there is an added benefit: I have a �one-day gallery sale� each year and the paper does a free story about me and the sale � were I not a regular (albeit small) advertiser, they probably would not run this piece. As a result of this �free mention� our local TV station did a three-part interview with me and I got a nice little rush of business following what we humorously referred too as �RJ the Miniseries�.

Paying the Bills

Try to resist the temptation of dealing with your suppliers on an �open account� basis; if you come down to the end of the month and bills have to be paid and the piece isn�t done yet you�ll be faced with the temptation to cut some corners or to put in extra hours � my experience is the extra hours are almost never as productive as they should be.

Working for Friends

Don�t! You won�t charge what the work is worth and unfortunately they will tell all of their friends and they�ll expect the same deal. It may sound harsh, but don�t work for relatives either � if you must build something for Aunt Sally, just give it to her.

Invoicing

Writing the invoice is probably the most profitable act of the sale. If you drop off the piece and then wait 15 days or so to send a bill, you�ll probably wait another 15 to 30 days to get paid � that�s at least a month when you don�t have use of the money.

Deposits

Be sure to get enough money on the front end to cover your cost of materials. Some makers charge 50% and have no problem; where I live, a deposit this high can cause hesitation and might kill the sale. My deposit is an amount equal to total material cost plus half of the mark-up.

Refunds

Sometimes a customer will change their mind about having something built: this can come about for a number of reasons ranging from buyer remorse to finding the product for less money somewhere else. How you deal with these situations will have an affect on how you are perceived in the community (especially in a small town). If you choose a �hard nosed� approach you will pretty much guarantee never doing business with that person again � there�s an old axiom that goes ��a happy customer will tell two friends; an unhappy customer will tell everybody�. Keep this in mind when formulating your refund policy. My policy is to give a full refund if I haven�t purchased materials yet, or if the materials are common enough that I will be assured of being able to use them. In the case of a cancelled order occurring after I�ve begun work I tell the customer I will finish the piece and refund the deposit when the piece sells at retail � this has only happened once in the last thirty years and I refunded the money about six month after the cancellation; the customer was delighted and ended up commissioning several pieces over the next couple of years.

A Production Trick

If you have a signature piece that has a proven track record of selling quickly consider building two pieces simultaneously: with me, this takes the form of a tall dresser that wholesales for between $2500 and $3000 (depending on material). When I build a singe dresser it takes me about 88 hours from start to finish: when I build two I can complete them both in about 125-130 hours � this is a tremendous time saving.

That�s about it � good luck with selling your furniture.

- rj -

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