Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

Dick Coers

Deft is not highly resistant to moisture. You decide if they will see much moisture I guess.

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

John Whittle

What would you suggest in place of Deft?

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

John K Jordan

Have you tried Tru Oil gunstock finish? Years ago I used it on a walnut gunstock and it looked great. Very tough. More recently I've been using it on turnings of exotic woods that will get a lot of handling.

You apply multiple coats, letting each dry for 2-24 hrs, fine steel wool between coats.

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

John Whittle

Thanks! I'll get some & try it.

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

John in NM

It may not need any finish at all if it's like cocobolo - dense and oily. I made a cocobolo grip once and just sanded it extra fine.

I've never had my hands on any moradillo though, so I couldn't tell you for sure. More commonly used names for this wood are Pau Ferro or Bolivian/Santos rosewood.

Given that it is a tropical hardwood and rosewood cousin, I would predict about the same results from any film finish you choose to use, from Deft to Tru-oil or anything else.

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

Keith Newton

I would suggest that you do a little google search. I have used it, and heard back from the finisher that some finishes never dry, and are gummy for days. Sorry I don't recall what finishes that was though.

As for a lacquer over poly, the lacquer thinner can act on it, and wrinkle it, certainly if you spray too heavy a coat. I'd suggest that you do really quick thin coats that flash quickly in warm dry air.

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

John Whittle

Thanks!

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

Brian Roberts

First....if you are not prepared to remove the original finish you need to find out for a fact what was used.

It is impossible to suggest a top coat for an old finish without knowing what that finish is.

Deft makes two finishes that I know of.....not counting the varieties of sheen within those two.

The Deft interior lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer. It is listed as an interior finish....but I have used it on gun grips and stocks with no problems. Assuming you may get the occasional bit of moisture on it....don't you wipe down your gun when it gets wet? Also....no gun stock or grip should get oiled when oiling the action.

The beauty of nitrocellulose is that each successive coat melts (chemically bonds with) the previous coats and they become one layer of finish....no problems with layers not bonding or with sand thru......touch up is a breeze!

The "other" Deft product is polyurethane. It is listed as interior/exterior. As such it would be fine for your use.....IF.....you sand the previous finish to promote adhesion.....AND....between coats......AND....if you ever want to do a touch up.

The ONLY way that a polyurethane finish bonds to itself is by "mechanical" means.....which is why you MUST sand between coats. The sanding scratches are what the next coat adheres to. There is NO chemical bond.

If the grips were mine.....I would remove any original finish.....(unless it is nitro lacquer)...and spray a couple coats of Deft nitro on them. If they ever need touching up....clean them up and spray another light coat of nitro....and....good to go.

an alternative view

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I spend a lot of time hunting. For a gun used in the field I think there is no better practical finish than linseed oil. It is durable, water resistant and easy to touch up. For show, I agree on the lacquer.

BTW, successive coats of lacquer do not chemically bond with one another. Rather each coat dissolves the surface of the previous coat and the new coat could be said to dissolve into the previous. On a molecule level the new finish molecules co-mingle with the previous ones.

Re: an alternative view

Brian Roberts

Is that not what I said?

"The beauty of nitrocellulose is that each successive coat melts (chemically bonds with) the previous coats and they become one layer of finish"

I assume your issue is with my use of the word "chemically"........

I ... to be technically correct....should have said molecularly......apologies.....

Regarding linseed oil......

I quote from Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing"

"It's a myth that linseed oil applied in any manner is a durable finish. A linseed oil finish is too thin and soft to protect well against heat, stains, or wear. And linseed oil, no matter how you apply it, or how many coats you apply, is quickly and easily penetrated by water and water vapor."

Re: Lacquer on Moradillo wood?

Howard Acheson

Another name for this wood is Brazilian Rosewood. Here is some additional info about this wood that may be relevant to it's use.

Workability:

Despite its density, Bolivian rosewood works well and sands to a fine natural polish. Many oil-based finishes will not dry properly with this wood, so water-based stains are preferred.

So, it's best to avoid over coating it with an oil based finish unless you test it first. Generally tropical hardwoods are first coated with dewaxed shellac to overcome this compatibility problem.

data to the contrary

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Flexnor probably doesn't hunt so he would have no useful data on the topic at hand . My comments that follow are for wood that will be used outdoors in the form of handles and stocks.

The top stock, Winchester Model 24, was refinished in 1955 with multiple coats of linseed oil. During the next 60 years it has been used each year to hunt, mostly rabbits in snow, rain and cold and occasionally nice weather. I probably added a coat of oil a time or two.

The bottom Model 37 stock is factory original lacquer of some sort. If was used regularly up until about 1955, retired for a while, and then brought out of retirement a few years ago. Last year I stripped and refinished with oil.

Now I don't know anything about collecting guns. But when it comes to outdoor wood my gun stocks that are used outdoors, canoe paddle handles and garden tool handles all get an oil finish.

Disagree on the linseed

John in NM

This is why I generally don't read books by experts. I often find that their expert prognostication is in direct contradiction to my experience and the experience of those who actually build stuff.

The standard by which this author dismisses linseed oil is not the same standard by which it is evaluated in years of use. I do not doubt the technical correctness of his details, just that he's dismissing a viable product based upon misapplication of those details - a bit like dismissing a particular vehicle as useless based upon it's rather ugly paint color.

In short, linseed oil is an excellent finish for a gunstock. It's worked well for the centuries that it has been used in that role, and continues to work well when properly applied. This is not to say it is the one and only possible finish in this application - you can make a good stock finish out of just about anything available on the finishing market.

Bill and John et al.

Brian Roberts

Clearly you are unfamiliar with Bob Flexner's writings or his credentials.

Condemnation prior to investigation?

I suggest you read the book....in particular the section entitled "Our ancestors and linseed oil".

Re: Bill and John et al.

John in NM

Yes, I am unfamiliar with Flexner. I know his name, but never read any of his writing beyond what gets quoted now and then in people's posts.

I do condemn what you quoted, nothing more, because I find it to be practically inaccurate - linseed oil is an effective finish in many applications. If all the experts in the world wish to disagree with me, they are quite welcome to do so. They are also welcome to argue that the sky is green - evidence shows me otherwise, just as it does with oil finishes.

I don't doubt for a moment that Flexner is correct in his characterization of linseed oil's faults. What I doubt is that these faults matter as much as he appears to think they do - because evidence shows me otherwise.

There is no one perfect finish for every application, and there are many applications for which an oil finish is going to perform poorly - but that does not mean the stuff is universally useless any more than poly or lacquer could be argued to be universally useful. Hard lacquer finishes are about the worst thing you can put on a gunstock, btw. They crack.

Bob is a friend

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We correspond from time to time. I fix his chemistry when he goes astray, which isn't often.

That said if one has not carried a gun around in the field and/or lake for a few hundred hours under all sorts of conditions the "best" finish for a gun being used for hunting birds, rabbits ducks, may not have revealed itself. Ditto for canoe paddle handles. And hoe handles for that matter (just did my every 5 year oiling of the garden handles this year). Others results may differ.

A gun that sits in a display case may well be another issue. I have no experience in this case.

I would not use linseed oil for a dining room table table top. In that application Bob and I are in agreement.

as show in my picture

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"Hard lacquer finishes are about the worst thing you can put on a gunstock, btw. They crack. " It may take 40 years but the Model 37 illustrates your point. No cracks on the oiled double.

And when they crack raw wood is exposed to rain, oil the elements. A bit of Hoppy's No9 or some light oil that strays to the oiled stock matters not a bit.

More data

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.



Here are some bent shaft canoe paddles I made thirteen years ago. Varnish blades and oiled shaft and handle. They are our favorite paddles so they get used a lot. It should be obvious from the bottom of the boat that it get used a lot. The oiled part is doing fine and it is easy on the hands on long trips, like several days.

I repeat for those that work outdoors with wood handles, stocks etc.......outdoors, wood and hands go well with linseed oil.

My experience with BLO

John K Jordan

The linseed oil discussed here IS "boiled" linseed oil, right? I found this: "Today, "boiled linseed oil" refers to a combination of raw linseed oil, stand oil, and metallic dryers (catalysts to accelerate drying)." If some references cited here are for raw linseed oil it might explain widely differing experiences.

I started using boiled linseed oil around the farm on Mr Tindell's advice some years ago. I use it on rake and wheelbarrow handles, barn doors made from rough sawn lumber, steps, plywood on the llama chute, and many other things. These are things that get wet when it rains. It seems to soak well into the wood and dry/cure quite hard. It repells water. It protects exposed wood than any other finish I've tried. I hope I don't read the book that tells me it doesn't work!

JKJ

llama chute?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We must have a picture of this woodworking item. My curiosity is perked.

Re:  llama chute?

John K Jordan

Bill,

Probably far more than you wanted to know,,,

The llama restraint chute was the first thing I built with the welding room in my new shop. It's purpose is to restrain llamas and alpacas for shearing, toe trimming and medical procedures. Camelids are notoriously difficult to work with since they do not tolerate being touched, especially on the legs. Our biggest weighs over 350 lbs, incredibly strong and could be impossible to work with and even accidentally quite dangerous if unrestrained.

This chute is patterned roughly after a commercial chute but with many enhancements. It has swing-out or removable side panels to provide access as needed. Padded neck bars squeeze in front of the shoulders so the animal can't move forward. Straps connect to the halter so he can't backup, jump up, or lay down. There are other straps and restraints for a particularly uncooperative animal. Detachable wheels let me roll it around as needed. My livestock scale fits inside for animal weights. The whole thing will unbolt for transport if needed but rides ok in a pickup bed as is.

I made it from square steel tubing with plywood door panels and floor. All of these are coated with BLO on all sides. While this is stored outside under a roof it does sit out occasionally and gets wet otherwise. It has held up well. I used it this evening to shear the brown llama with the black face in the last photo.

Making this chute saved me perhaps $1500-2000 minus a bit of steel, much of which was already in my stock. (I love my new shop. Wood (flat and turning) with cyclone DC, welding, machining, vehicle maintenance, electronics, fiber processing, bee stuff, and office with microscopes, dvd, and wifi. And the most important thing for a feeble elderly guy: heat and air!)

Come visit! I think last time I saw you was at the Richard Raffan demo in Crossville.

JKJ

do they have hair or wool

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Does the stuff that keeps them warm grow and then stop (hair) or keep growing forever like a sheep? I could use a sheep version of that chute. I have a hard time wrangling the bug Suffolk ewes when they are cranky, which is often.

Those don't look like happy ears on the brown fellow..

Re: do they have hair or wool

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Wool, or at least that's what the owner told me. I ran into a bunch at the North Dakota state fair a long time back, and I stuck my fingers into the wool a full 4+" before I ran into the skin. I asked the owner how they dealt with ND winters, and she laughed. They get down on the ground and chew their cud. I guess the high altitudes of the Andes are a lot colder than ND winters. Hard to believe, though.

Re: do they have hair or wool

John K Jordan

Rats, I wrote a reply earlier but don't see it. I'll try again...

Llamas and alpacas have continuously growing wool similar to sheep but finer and not reeking of lanolin. In this climate they must be sheared in the spring or they get too hot in the summer. By winter they grow a full coat and are comfortable in freezing weather. I've had to break their feed bowls out of the ice with a sledge hammer and they were happy, even all night in the field with snow on their backs. Ours have coats from 2-4" thick. The fiber is prized by spinners and knitters.

The chute is sized for llamas and alpacas (I saw a camel at th UT vet school in a much larger chute of the same design). This one might hold a sheep but something sized for sheep might be a lot better. The girl who used to shear my sheep always brought a shearing stand with an elevated platform and a support in front that she fastened the sheep's head to so he couldn't move. That would be very easy to build.

The llama Bubinga in the picture does does not look upset to me -I remember him as very calm. (He is a PR llama I take to schools and churches, basically unflappable.) They are like horses and fold their ears way back when mad.

JKJ