Hand Tools Archive

Subject:
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...

David Weaver
hollow grinding with CBN or even any graded wheel doesn't harm japanese chisels.

I don't do it because it's not aesthetically pleasing, but I've never noticed any issue as I may grind used chisels or plane blades initially if they show up basket cases.

Their temper isn't as fragile as people like to contend - temper at 300F is often an unusably hard japanese chisel and the effective temper for a really hard chisel made of white 1/2 or a swedish equivalent will be around 325F.

The steel on japanese chisels sparks so well that the backing metal gets hot and not the edge, and they become undesirable to handle. Not saying that someone can't stab them into a burned edge, but they grind better than their reputation would suggest.

As far as a soft ark vs. an abraded trans or black stone, it's not that easy to make a blanket statement. A dan's "soft" or a norton may be as fine as a finish stone or close once they're pretty much shut down, but they don't produce an edge finer than the one I showed as abraded.

The other softs available (smiths, natural whetstone, "case" branded, etc) will never work as finely as the abraded trans or black pictures here, and there is a range of suitability - 400 grit diamond hone on a trans or black stone is never going to create the kind of aggressiveness that much deeper scratches do.

But, trans and black stones are expensive and that's washita territory (almost all washitas).

There is a bigger difference between washitas of grade than of age. I made the comment that some of norton's later washitas are unimpressive, but I think they had given up on grade under the behr manning label and sold stones they may not have earlier (the ungraded type that just say "washita oilstone"). The behr manning graded stones (no 1, lilywhite) are still good stones, and there are very very fine older stones, but they are not as common and usually are placed in a razor box.

I get the inclination sometimes to stock washitas and grade them and sell them at cost, but the way they've caught on some, it's hard to get them in the states and I'd need to charge $80 just to break even.

The reason I'd even do that is that most people don't complete sharpening. When I put videos on youtube suggesting a grind and then a hone at a higher angle with a washita (no other steps), that suggestion was to help people understand what a completed edge is like. It's immediate confirmation that someone using finer stones isn't completing the job when they come back with "I'm getting better edges than I have before". Then, with that understanding, they can go back to their finer stones and start to make a decision about whether or not they can get enough better of an edge with finer stones than learning to use the washita well. The reality is that other than for paring chisels and carving tools, the answer is usually no. Some familiarity with any decent washita will yield edges at least as good as an 8k waterstone with a very desirable wire edge quality (fanned out, thin and not damaging when it comes off).

It usually results in some kind of shock that such a poorly regarded stone has existed among us and can do the job so easily.

Kind of like finding out that remington's new rifle model that's got tons of "improvements" isn't as good as the one dad had from 60 years ago.

Messages In This Thread

Sharpening Stone Ominbus - here we go
White Cretan - Novaculite *PIC*
stone pics... *PIC*
Black Sedimentary Stone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Norton Queer Creek *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Pic of the stone
Re: Pic of the stone *PIC*
Purple Welsh Slate *PIC*
edge picture with a razor *PIC*
Very dense....
Re: Purple Welsh Slate *PIC*
Owyhee Jasper *PIC*
picture of the stone *PIC*
Chinese Agate *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
crest complete (And more dursol) *PIC*
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Wrong R
Greasy/Coated India Stone *PIC*
Re: Greasy/Coated India Stone *PIC*
Gray China (Guangxhi?) natural waterstone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Linde A - Paraffin Buffing Bar *PIC*
Try bee wax
Fine buffing compound
practically...
one other side benefit
Also with iron oxide bar
Picture of the "stone" *PIC*
The real Llyn Idwall *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
two llyn idwalls
Re: two llyn idwalls
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Black Hone Slate *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Smiths Hard Arkansas *PIC*
pictures of the stone *PIC*
Re: Smiths Hard Arkansas
Re: Smiths Hard Arkansas
Japanese "Barber Oilstone" *PIC*
Pictures of the stone *PIC*
Slurried Trans Ark.. *PIC*
Am I understanding......
Re: Am I understanding......
This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
The other real issue with japanese finishers..
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Clarifying hollow grind
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
dan's and washita.
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Soft India?
soft vs. hard
Re: Soft India?
Now I am more confused
Re: I will make an exception…
Separately - a very good point made
Not defending wiley...
Re: Now I am more confused
Re: Now I am more confused
That explanation makes sense *NM*
Re: Am I understanding......
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Extra Fine India Stone *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Sigma Power 13k *PIC*
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Pic of the stone *PIC*
The rules of accommodation
Re: The rules of accommodation
Re: The rules of accommodation
Re: Pic of the stone
Re: Pic of the stone
Jackson Lea 5 micron "yellowcake" on softwood *PIC*
Is poplar soft enough
Re: Is poplar soft enough
picture of the wax bar *PIC*
Llyn Idwall *PIC*
Re: Llyn Idwall
Re: Llyn Idwall
Charnley Forest
releasing particles
Turkish Oilstone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Dursol (Autosol) Metal Polish *PIC*
Tying up loose polishes - Autosol *PIC*
Re: Tying up loose polishes - Autosol
pic of the dursol *PIC*
(this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
LV Green / Formax Microfine *PIC*
picture of the compound *PIC*
attractive old wives tales
Relevance? Question?
Re: Relevance? Question?
Clear summary thanks
Another White Alundum Japanese Stone *PIC*
Re: Another White Alundum Japanese Stone *PIC*
Very expensive (to me) japanese natural *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Very expensive (to me) japanese natural
Dan's black Hard Ark *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Coticules - Fine and Coarse *PIC*
pic of the stones *PIC*
garnet
not sure
Unknown Japanese White Alundum *PIC*
the stone.. *PIC*
question
Looking at this picture..
I do both
Hand American 0.5 micron Green Chrome Ox *PIC*
pic of the oxide *PIC*
The purpose of the omnibus...
Not unicorn related, more clear
What else the creator of the weaver bevel post? *NM*
question for David
Re: question for David
Thanks David *NM*
Supremely Fine Japanese Natural Razor Stone *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Thank you, David
Re: Thank you, David
very few will care about mines or stamps...
Practical question
Re: Practical question + another regarding scale..
Re: Practical question + another regarding scale..
Scale overlay
Re: Scale overlay
sorry, addressed differently
request
Brief comments...
Re: Practical question
Re: Practical question
Fine White Okudo Suita *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Shapton Cream *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Fine washita *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Kitayama waterstone *PIC*
Re: Kitayama waterstone *PIC*
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