Hand Tools Archive

Subject:
Re: Picture of the stone
Response To:
Re: Picture of the stone ()

David Weaver
(i typed all of the below- going off on a tangent, and I'll leave it because hate post editing - but the short answer is that the green stone here is harder, finer and a lot more rare. Your stone is an ohira (mine) stamped and graded tomae finishing stone - as in a legitimate graded mid-level tool and knife finisher that's of more recent or current mining. The green stone I showed is more like nakayama characteristic and it is so fine and hard that it can leave an entire tool mostly polished - but it's rare in that it has that fineness and hardness, but with a tough surface that doesn't get scratched or damaged by the corners of tools in heavy use. Your stone's paper stamp is imanishi - the distributor, the left translates to selected or first quality and the right side says it's a finishing natural stone from ohira-yama mine. I can't read kanji, either, but I can recognize some of the mine and cutting grade stamps, and then look up the rest).

Hi, Hank - that's an ohira mine stone, probably tomae strata. I had three of those - two from japan, one from the US. They are more mellow and more of a middle of the road finisher whereas the green stone that I posted is probably from nakayama or one of the older mines.

Ohira mine may be old, that's maybe not the right way to put it, but the mines like nakayama and narutaki were, to my knowledge, completely shut a long time ago and now their stamps are unprotected.

The three stones that I had were type 30, and I got the first from hida, who I believe bought the stock from imanishi, and then also bought kayako's remaining stones. Perhaps all of hida's stones didn't come from imanishi, but the label bottom left on that stone is imanishi's distribution label, and when you look at sellers like aframestokyo or hardware stores in japan, you can tell they're imanishi was the distribution channel.

The shorter stamp on the left side says ippon-sen, or specially selected, which just means the stone is first quality.

The stone on the right identifies the stone as something like honzan ohira-yama awase do, translating to a true finishing natural stone from ohira mine.

The reason that I bought three is the first one that I got from hida was about $400. It was OK. It didn't self slurry (using a japanese tool - with lamination, the jigane/soft lamination should wake up a good tool stone a little bit with a smooth feel when splashed with water, whereas all hardened steel tools may not). The first one I had, I used a lot - it was my personal stone before I started buying stones in droves from japan, and once it had been wet for a while, then the surface got a little bit loose and it would slurry a green slurry instead of making a black iron flower.

(all three of these had the same stamps and imanishi label as yours, but I think hida's may have had imanishi co in english at the bottom and the ones I bought through yahoo japan had it in japanese).

I think before web browsers translated things easily, we were fish in a barrel a bit for dealers, as the reason I got two more when I was selling stones was to see how consistent they were, and they were about $165 each at retail from a dealer in japan. At one point, chef knives to go was also retailing stones and they sold a gob of ozuku, ohira (with those stamps, as well as some with less select stamping) and maybe some atagoyama stamped stones. Those are current or recent mines, so that's where large runs of clear stock comes from.

The two that I got for $165 perhaps become $200 by the time you get them here, and they were the same as the ones sold in the US. It's just a sign of the difference between someone acquiring stock in the US (Be it kayako or hida) and selling to a smaller group with personalized service vs. someone operating a hardware stone and getting the same stones and selling some on site and some through the equivalent of ebay.

IT could also be that in time, once those stones are no longer being sold in large numbers (I haven't seen them for a while), the value will go up.

But since i'm doing a poor job answering your original question - what's the difference? The stone I have listed is more like an old stone, and less like a lot of the newer clear stamped material. It has a lot of tooth, but is extremely fine. It's borderline unsuitable for tools as it will polish both the jigane and the higane (leaving just a slight haze to the jigane on a chisel - one that looks more like a polish with no matte qualities). On water it will be a bit slow, and while it can be scuffed with a diamond to create a faster slurry. I prefer a stone that slowly releases its own in use for tools. So I wouldn't use this particular stone for tools other than to round over the tip.

I just worked a chisel on the stone in this picture (I generally only use it for razors) and the surface is also tough - it doesn't scratch under a tool and release particles (shoubu stones often do that, so do some ohira). When the surface of a stone is scratchy or easily scratched, it's hard to use on anything but razors and often those stones aren't fine enough.

I have seen so many stones that it's hard for me to give a straight answer, I guess, and sometimes my answers are colored by being disappointed about finding the price of things in japan once I started buying directly from there vs. what we pay. Most of the good-labeled ohira tomae stones are good middle of the road usable stones, same with atagoyama stones (which was large uniform somewhat slow, and very fine material - resulting in some cases in 7 or 8 pound stones that were sold at retail in japan for about $250 - I bought one of those, too, of course- that was new price). I saw Maksim (a dealer in europe) selling those for $700-$900 at the same time. It was disheartening.

Once in a while I buy things from Tomohito Iida, but one has to be careful what they're buying from Tomohito as something inexpensive may be very expensive through him (Stones are a bad idea from tomohito based on what I've seen). For example, the iyoroi kamaji chisels that I bought from fujibato for $60 each and that fujibato sold for a long at that price, Tomohito listed them for $115 each. Why? Ogata planes for a long time were very moderate price, but he supposedly retired and most of the plane makers seem to have gobs of left over stock when they retire that they couldn't sell. I got a blade and subblade new from alex gilmore years ago while ogata was still making for $225. It was this http://japantool-iida.com/plane_smoothing/2008/05/nami-no-hana-by-hideshi-ogata.html

Japan woodworker bought a bunch of ogata's blades, too - how they can keep coming up with so many while he's retired, I don't know, but what do I suspect is going on here? With no proof of course - I suspect the remaining stock was inexpensive, but the dealers see it as a real opportunity. There must've been a lot of it and the odds seem to be against the gain going in much amount to the maker, but rather every one between the maker and the buyer, and if the maker is no longer making, there's no threat of seeing $300-$400 listings to make people go ???. Iida at one point had a bunch of ogata planes for $475, his website was redesigned and when it reappeared, they were all $700-$800. Same with Nakano's planes. About double going rate.

We're somewhat captive because we don't speak english and the highest price dealers usually work on the friend model. They're very friendly, and if they're in japan, they may sell in japan for a fraction of what they charge for listings in english (that's a third dealer experience, or fourth, or whatever - none of the dealers mentioned above - but the prices in english on a dealer's site in japan were 60% higher than if you switched to japanese and paid in yen).

Sorry to trouble you with all of those details. I'd imagine if your stone was like my three, it's an honest finisher for tools. There is some variation in labeled stones (but my three were much the same), so it's hard to say for sure without using a stone in work context and looking at what it does under the microscope. The ohira tomae stones that I had were in the ballpark of a 6-8k synthetic finish and coarse and loose enough to leave a nice aesthetic on a chisel. There are faster stones that do the same thing, but you have to go through a few to find them, and there are finer stones (like the one that I pictured) - and everyone always thinks they want finer, but finer often means slower and a prefinisher needs to be used. I would have to diamond slurry this old stone or use a prefinisher before it, and nobody would like the aesthetic without the slurry - it's too fine and too bright of a polish. But great for razors or just working the tip of a tool whereas I didn't get a step up in sharpness over an 8k stone with the ippon-sen labeled ohira tomae.

The essence of being a good dealer is finding out exactly what someone thinks they want to do, explaining the boundaries of reality and then picking a stone that does exactly that. What I found from experience because I priced things at even cost from japan was that people didn't necessarily trust I was giving them straight advice until they would buy stones from me, then go spend 8 times as much buying aesthetically rare stones from another dealer some time later. They'd come back and mention that the expensive stones were about the same at best (depending on whether or not someone listened to exactly what they wanted in cutting qualities - pretty stones are nice, but if you're looking to sharpen a razor and you want a light tan colored stone that's as fine as a more typical green razor stone, the odds are that you'll get a very expensive very pretty stone that's a little bit coarse).

Messages In This Thread

Sharpening Stone Ominbus - here we go
White Cretan - Novaculite *PIC*
stone pics... *PIC*
Black Sedimentary Stone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Norton Queer Creek *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Pic of the stone
Re: Pic of the stone *PIC*
Purple Welsh Slate *PIC*
edge picture with a razor *PIC*
Very dense....
Re: Purple Welsh Slate *PIC*
Owyhee Jasper *PIC*
picture of the stone *PIC*
Chinese Agate *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
crest complete (And more dursol) *PIC*
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
Re: crest complete (And more dursol)
separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Re: separate, since you got caught in the net...
Wrong R
Greasy/Coated India Stone *PIC*
Re: Greasy/Coated India Stone *PIC*
Gray China (Guangxhi?) natural waterstone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Linde A - Paraffin Buffing Bar *PIC*
Try bee wax
Fine buffing compound
practically...
one other side benefit
Also with iron oxide bar
Picture of the "stone" *PIC*
The real Llyn Idwall *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
two llyn idwalls
Re: two llyn idwalls
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Black Hone Slate *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Smiths Hard Arkansas *PIC*
pictures of the stone *PIC*
Re: Smiths Hard Arkansas
Re: Smiths Hard Arkansas
Japanese "Barber Oilstone" *PIC*
Pictures of the stone *PIC*
Slurried Trans Ark.. *PIC*
Am I understanding......
Re: Am I understanding......
This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
The other real issue with japanese finishers..
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Clarifying hollow grind
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
dan's and washita.
Re: This is sort of a loaded situation...
Soft India?
soft vs. hard
Re: Soft India?
Now I am more confused
Re: I will make an exception…
Separately - a very good point made
Not defending wiley...
Re: Now I am more confused
Re: Now I am more confused
That explanation makes sense *NM*
Re: Am I understanding......
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Extra Fine India Stone *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Sigma Power 13k *PIC*
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Re: Sigma Power 13k
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Pic of the stone *PIC*
The rules of accommodation
Re: The rules of accommodation
Re: The rules of accommodation
Re: Pic of the stone
Re: Pic of the stone
Jackson Lea 5 micron "yellowcake" on softwood *PIC*
Is poplar soft enough
Re: Is poplar soft enough
picture of the wax bar *PIC*
Llyn Idwall *PIC*
Re: Llyn Idwall
Re: Llyn Idwall
Charnley Forest
releasing particles
Turkish Oilstone *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Dursol (Autosol) Metal Polish *PIC*
Tying up loose polishes - Autosol *PIC*
Re: Tying up loose polishes - Autosol
pic of the dursol *PIC*
(this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
Re: (this one is good enough for everyone)
LV Green / Formax Microfine *PIC*
picture of the compound *PIC*
attractive old wives tales
Relevance? Question?
Re: Relevance? Question?
Clear summary thanks
Another White Alundum Japanese Stone *PIC*
Re: Another White Alundum Japanese Stone *PIC*
Very expensive (to me) japanese natural *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Re: Very expensive (to me) japanese natural
Dan's black Hard Ark *PIC*
pic of the stone *PIC*
Coticules - Fine and Coarse *PIC*
pic of the stones *PIC*
garnet
not sure
Unknown Japanese White Alundum *PIC*
the stone.. *PIC*
question
Looking at this picture..
I do both
Hand American 0.5 micron Green Chrome Ox *PIC*
pic of the oxide *PIC*
The purpose of the omnibus...
Not unicorn related, more clear
What else the creator of the weaver bevel post? *NM*
question for David
Re: question for David
Thanks David *NM*
Supremely Fine Japanese Natural Razor Stone *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Picture of the stone
Re: Thank you, David
Re: Thank you, David
very few will care about mines or stamps...
Practical question
Re: Practical question + another regarding scale..
Re: Practical question + another regarding scale..
Scale overlay
Re: Scale overlay
sorry, addressed differently
request
Brief comments...
Re: Practical question
Re: Practical question
Fine White Okudo Suita *PIC*
Picture of the stone *PIC*
Shapton Cream *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Fine washita *PIC*
Pic of the stone *PIC*
Kitayama waterstone *PIC*
Re: Kitayama waterstone *PIC*
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