Hand Tools

Subject:
Re: very interesting article

david weaver
Indeed, he does. In a non-competitive market to beginners (mostly) and museum workers who are hamstrung by curators who won't allow them to use double iron planes.

He does make nice planes. They're just dominated (game theory term) by double iron planes, and his thoughts/conclusions about the double iron plane are wrong.

If he tried to stick to his guns 200 years ago (when experienced users would've been his customers) , he'd go broke.

Here's things that he's incorrect about:
* double iron planes can be made sloppily (any can, but the early ones that eliminated his types were definitely not, and even into the early 1900s in england, they were not)
* the double iron is there to eliminate chatter for the most part. Very unlikely, though it's a nice side benefit - the double irons would've remained loose and less expensive to produce than slotted irons and caps with brass bosses and expensive screws if it wasn't important for the cap to be close to the edge (to break chips). The slot and screw was added because it makes a close stable set that lasts through plane depth adjustments.
* You can't use the full width of the iron, because a shaving trap is created between the top of the cap iron and the wedge fingers (it's not if the wedge fingers are sprung against the side and don't terminate well past the end of the cap iron hump (there's no reason for them to). Every plane I've made has been tested to take full width shavings without issue. It's quite possible that larry wasn't able to make one that didn't clog, but this point has been true on my planes and any reasonably well made plane with a well fitted wedge.
* There are no single iron planes around now from the late 18th and early 19th century because people favored them and used them up (I don't even know what to say to that one - wouldn't there be expended planes and spare irons around in droves? Nobody seems to throw away the spent double iron planes)
* People would've just used a thicker iron, but they were too difficult to sharpen. the soft part of the iron is easily cut with a coarse sandstone. It would've been no big deal for a shop craftsman to sharpen a thicker iron. The bit would've been no thicker, and that is the part that's really difficult to sharpen if it's too thick. Thick enough to eliminate chatter would've been 3/16th or so instead of 1/8th.
* You can't reliably set the double iron at a distance where it's effective. That's not true at all.

What is true is that double iron planes cost a great deal more than single iron planes, but they were bought by men who weren't made of money, almost without exception. It's very unlikely that this decision has to do with anything other than economics. A craftsman could do more work with a double iron plane, and in more woods. The extra cost must've been worth it, or the craftsmen would've just asked for a thicker single iron plane and spent their money on a grinding wheel or corundum.

We can see it very easily now - 100 board feet of lumber with each type of plane is enough to see the difference many times over. Few do that now, especially not for a living. The market is made of beginners, and beginners like easy. If they buy a plane and don't use it much, they're usually not upset.

I noticed in Larry's (excellent) moulding plane video that he has to skew his high angle smoother in wood that i have no trouble planing through with any double iron plane. There's no great pressure on him to do any blank sizing productively because he does his rough work with machines, and it appears that the final planes are sanded. This type of work is very easy to do with a standard stanley plane.

I understand that Larry was a carpenter before an arm issue sidelined him. I don't think he has a lot of experience cabinetmaking from rough wood with hand tools or he'd have come to a different conclusion very quickly.

This discussion could lead to all kinds of additional questions. Why don't I make planes for pay if I think the design is so great? Why have most of the follow-on makers copied Larry? Why doesn't CW allow single iron planes? Why aren't there double irons in specialty planes?

There are answers for all of those questions, but it's hardly worth the trouble to type them out, and I don't have interest in convincing people that they shouldn't buy single iron planes. People should buy whatever they like, but they shouldn't conted buying what they like is a substitute for what happened with professional users 200 years ago.

(Larry hates bevel up planes, too, and has all kinds of suppositions about why they are unproductive, but I'm pretty sure LV sells far more of those than Larry sells of his planes).

Messages In This Thread

LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: I should add..
Crude cap irons
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: Stamping..
Re: LV replacement cap irons......
Re: It's worth a chuckle
Heavier Stanley cap-iron
Re: Heavier Stanley cap-iron
First one I saw...
That would've been my guess
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Final smoothing isn't the problem
Re: Final smoothing isn't the problem
very interesting article *LINK*
Re: very interesting article
Re: very interesting article
Re: very interesting article
Re: very interesting article
Re: Breaker, breaker, on mine, clear the pine
Re: Breaker, breaker, on mine, clear the pine
re: bevel-up
Re: re: bevel-up
Re: Breaker, breaker, on mine, clear the pine
Re: very interesting article
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw... *PIC*
Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper *PIC*
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: Sandpaper
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Re: First one I saw...
Quality is relative
Not really...
Re: growing pains..
Re: growing pains..
Re: growing pains..
Re: First one I saw...
Re: Latest Development
Re: Latest Development
Re: Latest Development
stay set
Re: stay set
The internet hasn't helped in some things..
Re: And it hasn't helped in others...
Re: The internet hasn't helped in some things..
Re: The internet hasn't helped in some things..
Re: LV replacement cap irons...... *LINK*
© 1998 - 2017 by Ellis Walentine. All rights reserved.
No parts of this web site may be reproduced in any form or by
any means without the written permission of the publisher.

WOODCENTRAL, P.O. BOX 493, SPRINGTOWN, PA 18081