Hand Tools

Subject:
Re: Kato and Kawai
Response To:
Kato and Kawai ()

david weaver
If you watch that video, you can see some "hair" standing up behind the iron, but the smashing is a little less than i expected - though I can't tell much from the video in regard to surface quality or "smashing", which is evident in something like pine as a bit of waviness or almost a miniature looking level of figure.

I calculate that to be a 4 thousandth depth removal, so the shaving is probably in the neighborhood of 5 thousandths. I think it's probably more useful to do this test with a plane, but back to the original need for a conclusion:

Is there any reasonable setting where you will use a hand plane with the cap iron below the mouth, and even more important, is there a setting where you'll use the cap iron below the mouth and with the cap iron overlapping the edge of the iron. The answer to that is no.

5+ years ago when I tested a bunch of different sets with a bunch of different planes, I watched the video and assumed that I could blunt the edge of a japanese cap iron to 80 degrees and I'd be pretty much home free - 8/10bu shininess and perfect tearout control, but it turned out to work like crap. It was very sensitive to set. Point being, I'm not sure the video is nearly as practical as just intentionally setting the cap iron below the mouth with a 50 degree leading angle (which is about as low as you'd want to go for effective tearout control).

The makers of the video were pretty direct about it not being instructive for hand planes in general.

I'm insisting on two things for a good conclusion:
* these things be tried instead on a hand plane
* that they be used in context of actual work, vs. what is potentially possible if you are really going to bulldoze your planes. That's important because this expands out to what you can do for a while, and a while means for an hour, for a day, for a week, for a year, for a lifetime of work

Not to mention, if there is a need for a set below the mouth, we can identify it by showing a sample stick of wood that is representative of work we'd do and that can't be planed cleanly with the cap level with the mouth or above, but can be planed cleanly if the cap iron is shoved below mouth level. I think the sample that fits that will be zero or near zero, and if the latter is the only successful method, it's going to need scraping after the fact.

I sanded my cocobolo plane to solve the problem and then scraped it. Not intellectually honest for someone like me!! But it was a rounded surface on a smooth/coffin plane and you can only do so much. I'm confident that the woods that cause me problems cannot be planed reasonably by anyone on this board. I'm also confident that if you really wanted to take a single iron plane and sharpen it to the Nth degree and move the cap out of the way, you might be able to plane the sticks I talked about causing me trouble. But woe be to the person who takes a single shaving a little too deep, or who takes a shaving with the iron just a bit too dull. That kind of thing isn't at all practical. It might take half a day to finish plane a table top made like that, and I wouldn't struggle through it.

This is interesting to us, because I know you like to get into the weeds. I had broken myself of the habit mostly, but I'm easily dragged back into them! I don't think there will be a time, though, no matter how long I live, that I'll plane with the cap iron below the mouth. BTDT, and that very thing is actually what sent me in the wrong direction many years ago.

I recall warren saying something about the cap iron, and it may be 2007 or so. AT the same time, I had just seen Charlesworth's video about setting a microbevel on the back of an iron for a 70 degree effective pitch to plane santos mahogany. So I set the cap iron way too close, it was about as hard to push as charlesworth's version and the surface quality was the same. I know I came back on here and whined at Warren about it. I'm not sure he remembers that, but he doesn't forget much! I am not successful using the search function on here, so don't know exactly when it was, but that sent me going the wrong way for another 5 years or so, only to be bothered by the topic again just before the K&K video came out (by chance) because I figured there was something Warren knew about dimensioning wood and I knew me and my JT brown long plane weren't going to have a relationship doing it.

Messages In This Thread

Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Redoing the test
Re: Redoing the test
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
If you're a beginner...
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: And a quote....
Re: Radius of cambered blade - some #'s *LINK*
Re: Radius of cambered blade - some #'s
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
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Re: The other issue...
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Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
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Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Contrariness
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Kato and Kawai
Re: Kato and Kawai
Remarkable restraint
Re: Remarkable restraint
Re: Remarkable restraint
Re: Remarkable restraint
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Not really lighting it up
Correction
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Re: Correction *LINK*
Re: Correction
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This seems pointless
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Maguire
Re: McGuire
The Virtue
Re: Maguire
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Re: This seems pointless
Re: This seems pointless
"Planecraft"
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My apologies
Re: Burr and Hardness
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Re: "Planecraft"
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The big difference
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Re: This seems pointless
Re: Correction
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Re: The most likely
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Jupiter Cakes
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Re: YMMV
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No tear stained defense needed..
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Re: No tear stained defense needed..
Re: No tear stained defense needed..
Set-back distance and measurebation
Re: Set-back distance and measurebation
swingley thread
Blackburn
Re: Blackburn
Andrew Hunter
Japanese planes
Re: Japanese planes
Re: Japanese planes
Re: Japanese planes
Re: Blackburn
Re: No tear stained defense needed..
Cap iron sharpening
Re: Cap iron sharpening
Re: Cap iron sharpening
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Re: Worn Through
Re: Worn Through
Re:cap iron sharpness and maintenance
Re:cap iron sharpness and maintenance
Re:cap iron sharpness and maintenance
Pictures *PIC*
Cap iron sharpness
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Re: Pictures
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Re: Cap iron sharpening *LINK*
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Cut depth, species, and wear
Re: No tear stained defense needed..
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Re: No tear stained defense needed..
Simple concept, easy 'splanation
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Tried this again today
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Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
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Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
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Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Re: Double Iron vs. Thick Iron
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
planing
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Re: planing
Re: planing
Re: planing
Consumables vs skilled labor
Actually, you've fed right into..
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Re: Good Work
Re: planing
Re: Cap iron setback and shaving thickness
I knew *PIC*
Re: I recall
By the way, Mark..
Re: By the way, Mark..
Re: By the way, Mark..
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