| Stuart | Good evening. It is my pleasure to introduce our special guest and WoodCentral moderator, John Lucas, for a chat about one of John's specialties: Hand Mirrors. Before we get started, if you don't have a copy of John's tutorial you can get it here: http://www.woodcentral.com/chats/lucas_announcement.html. Having a copy opened in a second window or printed out will help to ask questions in the same order as the steps are presented in the tutorial. John do you have any opening comments before you start answering questions? |
| ericjoseph2001 | Hi guys, Hi John, followed you from WOOD mag :) |
| ericjoseph2001 | Hi Jeff |
| John_Lucas | Hi Eric |
| John_Lucas | Not sure if I have any comments. Mirrors are fun and make great gifts. I've been turning them for about 20 years. |
| Ellis | How many have you turned, do you figure, John? |
| Ellis | And how do you turn them? In batches? |
| John_Lucas | Wow I don't know. I usually turn them in batches of 12 or so. I have done special orders of 25 every now and then so I probably do about 50 to 75 a year with some years being higher and some much lower. |
| John_Lucas | I got started because I was incredibly broke, Christmas was coming up and Woodsmith magazine had an article on how to make them using a router. I was sort of router guru back then so I made 25. Then I just started figuring how to make them on the lathe. |
| John_Lucas | For my earliest ones I had the glass cut. That didn't work because the glass was never perfectly round and I diddn't like the edges. |
| Ellis | How long do you figure it takes you to make a batch? |
| darrin_hill | are we reflecting on mirrors tongiht? |
| AlanZ | My bride and I have recently been making compact mirrors (for a lady's purse). We're trying to find a reliable source of quality 2" round beveled 3mm mirrors |
| John_Lucas | It took a long time to find a source to wholesale the glass. Remember this was before computers. I was in Gatlinburg one weekend and saw some 4" bevel edge mirrors used to display gems. I looked up the company and now order from them. |
| Ellis | Yeah, no sense trying to cut mirror yourself. |
| John_Lucas | Ellis I've never really timed myself but I think I can turn one in under 45 minutes. My first ones took me about 4 hours. |
| ericjoseph2001 | Love to hear you say that John, everything takes me four hours to turn! |
| John_Lucas | Alan I get mine from Tripar Inc. They sell 2", on up but you need a tax # to buy from them. |
| Ellis | Tell us more about the reverse cuts, John. |
| Lan_B | no red arrows John! |
| AlanZ | Thanks John, I'm familiar with Tripar |
| ericjoseph2001 | John you have a specific jig you use to marrk the handles don't you? I saw a video you did on tool useage and you demonstrated on a mirror handle |
| John_Lucas | Alan They've gone up in their minimum order. I think it's about $120 now. |
| Chuck_Jones | I bought some mirrors from Packard $4.24 for the 4" |
| Lan_B | thats a lot of glass John |
| Stuart | I'm curious about the the dowel in the face plate. Is that just for aligning? |
| John_Lucas | Eric I have made a special jig to mark the 4" hole. Another one I call a go-no-go gauge for mirror depth and to check the final size, and then another story stick for the handle. |
| AlanZ | The problem with the 2" mirrors is that so many of them are pretty low quality. The silvering isn't very good, and the edges are rough |
| John_Lucas | Yes eric. Early on I didn't have a chuck. I still teach it that way. I use 4" jaws on my chuck which makes it faster. |
| John_Lucas | Alan I have occasioanlly had mirrors with scratchs on the good side but the silvering has always been good and they are bevel edged. |
| Galen_V | John do you always use CA glue over double face tape |
| ericjoseph2001 | what's the most challenging aspect of turning a mirror? Any major corrections that helped you fine tune them? |
| AlanZ | Can I ask a question about an instruction on page 15 of the tutorial, or should I wait for later on? |
| John_Lucas | The dowel alignment procedure as well as the drill through the hole alignment method has worked well for a lot of projects, not just mirrors |
| John_Lucas | Probably the most challenging thing is turning beads on the face of the piece. I've worked out a good method using a spindle gouge and raising the tool rest way above center line. |
| Stuart | Go ahead Alan. |
| John_Lucas | Alan I thought I only had 12 pages :) |
| John_Lucas | That may have been after I reduced the file size on the photos. |
| AlanZ | ok, here's what had me scratching my head for a few moments |
| AlanZ | "Before glueing in the glass I spray the mirror with lacquer. " |
| AlanZ | upon thinking about it, you're referring to the wood, not the glass, right? |
| AlanZ | I couldn't imagine why you would spray the actual mirror |
| John_Lucas | I completely finish the wooden part of the mirror before installing the glass. The glass is the very last step. I don't spray the glass. Poor editing on my part. |
| ed_larson | John, how far below the surface do you place the mirror?? |
| Ellis | Your editing is excellent, John. Thanks for the greatest tutorial we've ever had for one of these chats. |
| AlanZ | That's what I thought, just making sure |
| John_Lucas | I just try to cut the wood deep enough so the glas will not touch any surface if layed glass side down. I think the opening is about 1/4" deep 6mm, and the glass is 3. Usually I end up taking the wood down a little when I clean up the glass side so it's probably 4 or 5 mm deep after I get it finished. |
| AlanZ | Also, when you glue in the mirror, do you spread the glue around on the back of the mirror to avoid any 'bleed through' problems with the adhesive? |
| John_Lucas | Thanks Ellis |
| Ellis | I notice that your opening seems to be about 1/8" bigger than the mirror diameter. But your writeup says to make it exact. Do you need to allow some extra clearance for shrinkage? |
| DickW | Welcome Howard.....SRO |
| John_Lucas | Alan I just put 5 or 6 dots about 1/3 of the way in. Then I push the mirror down on it to squeeze out any air and seat the glass. |
| Ellis | Have any of the silicone bonds ever failed that you know of? |
| AlanZ | I've seen that technique show through the dots (darkening the silver)/ I've also seen this with double sided adhesive tape made for car mirrors if not applied smoothly and completely |
| John_Lucas | Ellis I think I showed how I cut a tapered opening with a spindle gouge. The actual opening is just a hair over 4" but down at the bottom of the opening it is more like 4 3/16 thanks to the spindle gouge that I push straight in. |
| Ellis | Ah, yes. Thanks. I missed that. |
| John_Lucas | Alan and Ellis. I have never had a failure that I know of using clear silicone caulk. It hasn't damaged the silver and I've had to replace the glass in brocken mirrors that were more than 10 years old. I had to actually chip out the glass that was still stuck to the caulk. |
| Stuart | How do you break he CA bond from the mirror side after revearse turning without damaging the turned surface? |
| John_Lucas | Stuart That's why I use accelerator. The accelerator makes the CA fragile. If you hit it hard and fast it breaks right at the glue line leaving my mirror and glue block intact. |
| Ellis | You just used regular silicone, right, not any special RV silicone or anything special? |
| Galen_V | Would I have more problems with double face tape rather than CA |
| John_Lucas | Stuart I should say that's why I do the sequence that I do. I glue the block to the good side of the mirror first so it this side is damaged it will be turned later. The glass side doesn't matter if it's damaged. |
| John_Lucas | Galen, I've use both double stick and hot glue. They both work but are harder to get off. I use a steel guitar string to kind of saw through the glue or tape. |
| Ellis | Great use for old strings, John. And I love the trick for centering the waste block to turn the show side. |
| John_Lucas | Ellis I just use regular clear silicone caulk in the large tubes for about $5 or so. It looks, smells, and probably tastes just like the official mirror adhesive that is about $8 for a small tube. |
| Ellis | How thick do you figure the wood is behind the mirror when you're done? |
| John_Lucas | Mirror thickness varies. I often start with 3/4" stock, take away aabout 1/4 for the glass side, it's slightly concave so subtract another 1/8". Then I end up taking alittle off when I turn the backside so it's probably 1/8 to 3/16 and maybe eve 1/4" thick |
| John_Lucas | Hi Michael M, good to see you |
| michael_mocho | Wow! You can see me? Jeez, you must have a super computer ..... |
| John_Lucas | It's my new MAC, that built in camera is great. :) |
| michael_mocho | Had I known, I would have combed my hiar and but on a better shirt. |
| Don_Orr | Just got home from a turning club meeting and wanted to stop in and say thanks to John Lucas for the excellent tutorial on his hand mirrors. |
| Ellis | It seems like you've settled on a basic handle design. What was the design thinking behind the handle shape and details? |
| John_Lucas | The most important thing about the mirrors is not getting the area where the handle goes too thin and not getting the handle tenon too thin. This makes them weak. |
| Stuart | Does the grain direction make any difference when drilling the hole for the handle? |
| Galen_V | So you try to make mirror side concave not flat, I was not sure in text comment. |
| John_Lucas | Ellis I used to make the handles thicker, and still do when I have the wood. The design I use most often now is the double taper. This works very well with 3/4" stock. A thick handle area just doesn't look thick enough with 3/4" wood. |
| Ellis | What do these mirrors sell for, John? |
| Ellis | If I may ask... |
| John_Lucas | Ellis In my area I can sell the plain ones for $35 and they go up to $55. We have tried $75 and around here they just sit. I think they would easily sell for $100 or more in the right market. |
| Ellis | Do you ever make any fancy variations, like with fancy veneer on the show side? |
| Ellis | Can you wholesale them to gift shops? |
| ed_larson | John, have you tried any burning or decoration on the back side?? |
| John_Lucas | If you count my time I loose money on my fancy mirrors. I have done just about every wood working technique on one sooner or later. I remember taking a mirror out to show my friend Graham Campbell. He said it was a complete wood working course in one mirrors. It had bent laminations, segments, glue laminations, carving and I forget what else. |
| Ellis | I might have guessed. |
| John_Lucas | Ed Yes, I do initials on the back for custom work. I use pyrography for the simple ones, chick carving for the fancier ones and routed and carved raised letters for the fancier one.s |
| Ellis | Maybe we should have a hand mirror contest on WoodCentral. |
| John_Lucas | That would be fun. There are some great turners who would have some wonderful designes |
| Ellis | You'd have to be one of the judges, John. |
| Ellis | Are there any particular woods that you prefer? I assume you must work with dry wood |
| John_Lucas | Dry wood is a must because wet wood warps and the out of round turned circle looks terrible compared to a round glass mirror. |
| Ellis | Do exotics sell better than domestics? Or how about exotic domestics like curly stuff and spalted wood? |
| Ellis | I'm already envisioning Christmas presents for all the women in my family... :) |
| John_Lucas | Fancy wood sells really well. It adds a lot to the cost of course. To answer your other question I do sell them wholesale to a couple of galleries. |
| Stuart | Have your tried adding school logos? |
| ed_larson | Is the 4-inch mirror the most popular or the most practical?? |
| John_Lucas | Ellis I have turned mirrors for gifts for men quite often. I remember a lady asking me to make what she called a masculine mirrror. I thought about it long and hard and then turned it with Knurling on the handle so it kind of resembled a ratchet wrench. I thought that would be masculine. Then I atually bought a socket wrench and used that for the handle on a couple |
| Ellis | Do they make 5" and 6" mirrors, too? |
| Lan_B | cool idea John |
| John_Lucas | I used to make 2", and 3" pocket mirrors to go along with the 4". My galleries didn't like selling them so I quit making them. I tried 5" but they are just too big. I have made them up to 8". If you make a stand the 8" ones look good. For hand held 4" is best. |
| Wally_Dickerman | John, how do you market your mirrors? |
| Ellis | Sounds like you've scoped it out pretty well |
| RayT | Can you get magnifing mirrors? |
| John_Lucas | Wally I sell through 2 local galleries and then word of mouth. When you work at a University and people get to know you, you get a lot of Christmas orders. |
| JohnV | Ray, go to Wally World and buy a cheap plastic framed mirror. Flat on on side, magnifing on the other |
| John_Lucas | Ray I have failed miserably when trying to buy the maginifying mirror glass. I can find the whole mirrors and have bought a few and destroyed them to get the glass. |
| JohnV | 2 for 1 |
| ericjoseph2001 | John talk about your process for raised lettering and textures, such as knurling or techniques for pyrography |
| RayT | Thanks JV, I'll try that. Wife can't see without the magnifcation anymore |
| John_Lucas | The downside of wally work mirrors is they are 5" with rough edges and look like crap. To get around that I turn a filler ring to cover the edge but that of course takes a lot more time and raises the price of the mirror |
| Wally_Dickerman | John, ever done any painting on mirrors? |
| JohnV | But for Ray's wife , nothing is too much |
| RayT | That's what she said |
| Ellis | :) |
| John_Lucas | To do raised letters what I do is actually lower the background around them. I use a trim router with a 1/4" bit to waste away most of the wood and change to a 1/8" bit when getting close to the letters. I clean them up with carving tools. Then I texture the background with leather stamps. |
| Stuart | That sounds very time consuming. |
| RayT | I assume you freehand the router work. |
| Galen_V | Do you sell more with a softer look to finish or high gloss |
| John_Lucas | Wally I've painted quite a few but they don't sell anywhere near as well as the fancy or even plain woods. Textureing with Sorby tools or othe texturing techniques works better than paint. |
| John_Lucas | Ray It is freehand routing. |
| John_Lucas | Galen I choose the finish gloss based on the wood. Some woods just look better with a gloss. I don't really like the plastic gloss look but most are pretty shiny. |
| Stuart | Do you caution them about possible damage to the finish from cleaner? |
| ericjoseph2001 | Does the knurling happen with a chatter type tool for knurling? I've seen knurling tools but wasn't sure exactly how they were used |
| Ellis | Are you careful about the balance of the finished mirror? How thick is the glass? |
| Dave_Peebles | John, do give any thought to most mirrors end up in the bathroom, a high humidity location? Sorry I must have missed your finish procedure |
| John_Lucas | Stuart That's why I now use lacquer for my finish. I used to use some of the rub on finishes or shellac. I found out that Windex sprayed on the large mirror in the bathroom will let little dots float in the air and land on the hand mirror and leave dots. It doesn't leave dots on the lacquer. I also want a finish that is repairable easily if I get one back for repair. |
| John_Lucas | Dave Hope I just answered that. Eric, what I called knurling was really more of a texturing that sort of resembled knurling. I have done knurling on really hard woods but your limited to Boxwood, Osage orange or other woods that hard. |
| ed_larson | John, are the mirrors in the three sources equal in quality?? Any preference for one over the other?? |
| Dave_Peebles | You did John. :) Thanks |
| John_Lucas | Eric you can't use the chatter tool on handles because they are side grain. |
| ericjoseph2001 | I never thought of that, have never used a chatter tool |
| ericjoseph2001 | still real new at this. |
| John_Lucas | Ed I think they are all the same. |
| John_Lucas | Eric Chatter tool works on end grain so in theory you could do a little chatter on maybe the side of a bead on the handle. |
| ericjoseph2001 | makes sense |
| Ellis | Well, I'm going to try making a mirror as soon as I can get out to the shop. |
| Jim_Evans | John, have you ever used a needle scaler for chattering side grain? |
| Stuart | Ellis, your idea about a mirror contest sounds good but maybe after the first of the year when the Christmas turnings for this year are done. |
| John_Lucas | I used to make mirrors that resemble what Terry Scott is doing now. I was bicycling one day and saw a bent metal sign laying in the woods. It had to corners lower than the other two. I though, hey I can do that, so I made a few. Terry of course took this style to the next level. |
| John_Lucas | Jim No I don't have needle scaler. But what I do use is a Dremel engraver. I removed the factory tip and installed the shank of a 1/8" drill bit. I ground it into a round edge and then simply scribble on the wood with it. Looks similar but you have much more control of the texture. |
| Ellis | I think everyone should take good photos of their finished mirrors and keep them for the contest. |
| Ellis | Hmm, Dremel engraver. |
| Jim_Evans | My dremal engraver doesn't seem to give me enough texture. |
| John_Lucas | I learned that from an old time turner. It's a wonderful texture. It looks great on raised bands. |
| Jeff_W | Jim, try using a finish nail with the head ground off in your engraver. |
| Galen_V | Time to go. Thanks John Lucas and Ellis. I did just order a few mirrors now just must finish other work first. Oh and I need more printer ink after making prints for shop use! |
| JohnV | Thanks for a good chat and turorial John, night all |
| John_Lucas | Thanks everyone for coming. I'll hang around a little longer for any questions on turning |
| Chuck_Jones | I posted my first attempt at a mirror on the turning forum earlier. My wife says she likes it but can't lift it. Guess I have to try for thinner next time. |
| John_Lucas | Jim Try changing the switch on the top from 1 to 5. I use about #3 I think. |
| Chuck_Jones | Good tutorial John and good chat. Thanks. |
| Stuart | John, thanks for the tutorial and answering our questions. It has been a great chat. |
| Dave_Peebles | John, Thanks for a great chat. Biggest crowd since David Ellsworth I believe. Looking forward to next week too |
| ericjoseph2001 | Hey John, thanks for posting the invite over on the WOOD forum, you've been a huge help in my progress and and a major inspiration for turning. |
| John_Lucas | CHuck You bring up a good point. I do prefer to use lighter woods if I can. It makes the mirror less top heavy and balances in your hand better. |
| RayT | Some great ideas tonight, gotta try them out....just as soon as I get the Xmas tree done. |
| BillT | Good show. Nite all |
| Stuart | Before everyone leaves, don't forget Cindy Drozda is scheduled for next week. |
| Howard_N | night all |
| michael_mocho | Thanks John- they should double your pay ........ |
| Jim_Evans | john, OK, thanks for the chat. |
| Ellis | John, I just want to say thank you for doing a great service for our turning friends. You're a born communicator. |
| John_Lucas | Thanks Ellis, now time for some Rum |
| Ellis | Sounds like a plan. You earned it. :) |
| John_Lucas | Nite all, Have a good evening. |
CHATROOM
