  WoodCentral "Editors Chat Series" CHRIS SCHWARZ Executive Editor, Popular Woodworking May 25, 2004 [EDITED] |
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| Ellis | Welcome, everyone. Our guest tonight is Popular Woodworking editor, Chris Schwarz. |
| Ellis | Hi, Chris. Nice to see you. How are we doing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think we're fine. |
| Ellis | Hi Steve. Nice to see you here. |
| steve.shanesy | Hi Ellis. Hey those were some awesome turnings you made. |
| Ellis | Hey, thanks, Steve. |
| Chris_Schwarz | You should see some of Steve's turnings. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Went to his house one day and the place is filled with the stuff. |
| Ellis | Chris, you have been an active participant on our Hand Tools board. What got you into hand tools? |
| Chris_Schwarz | No problem, I can blather on endlessly. Just ask my coworkers |
| Ellis | Blather on briefly.:-() |
| Stephen | blather well |
| Ellis | It is Pop Woodworking night here at WoodCentral. These are the people who make the magazine |
| Ellis | We'd like to have a couple of your pieces in Shop Shots, Steve, or the Turning Gallery. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I bet that can be arranged. Steve also welds, and combines the two crafts. |
| mikeg | cool |
| Stephen | how much emphasis is placed on hand tools in your publication? |
| steve.shanesy | So, what's anyone want to know about PW. Between the two of us, we know where all the bodies are buried. |
| Chris_Schwarz | More and more these days. |
| Ellis | Well, I'm sure you can put together a little PW gallery for us. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Right now, I think that it's about 40 percent hand-tool related |
| Ellis | Yes, I enjoy the shift in attention. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Meat power |
| Stephen | good answer |
| crackerjack | Anything new and exciting coming up in the future? |
| Ellis | Most other magazines are so focused on power tools. |
| TerryS | Can we visit the magazine's shop if we are visiting Cincy? You are in Cincinnati, right? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Got some good stuff in the next issue about handsaws |
| Chris_Schwarz | Graham Blackburn has penned a missive on sharpening and using them. |
| steve.shanesy | We're in the Queen City alright. We welcome visitors with open arms. |
| Ellis | I would like to see the results of your research into handsaws. That's a mystery area to me. |
| Chris_Schwarz | As Steve will attest, I am *way* into handsaws now. |
| mikeg | me too even though i have a bunch of them |
| Chris_Schwarz | Been talking way too much to Tom Law |
| Ellis | There you go. I need to make the pilgrimage myself someday soon. |
| Chris_Schwarz | He's a living treasure, Tom Law. |
| Ellis | Tell us more, Chris... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ever hear about saw "hang?" |
| mikeg | saw hang? |
| crackerjack | nope |
| Ellis | I was hoping this would come up. Tell us... |
| Chris_Schwarz | I was clueless myself until recently |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's where your hands point when you saw. |
| Ellis | Okay..... |
| Chris_Schwarz | In a good saw the knuckles should point to the middle of the toothline |
| Ellis | Ah! |
| Chris_Schwarz | But in many saws your knuckles point to the toe |
| Chris_Schwarz | You lose a lot of power and control |
| mikeg | what if yer hand's deformed like mine...lol |
| Chris_Schwarz | You make a new handle |
| Ellis | That's one of the nuances that you know but don't think about. |
| Ellis | ...sorta know |
| steve.shanesy | Chris showed me this the other day and we checked out several vintage saws. There really is a difference. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's an amazing difference. |
| Stephen | that requires a new handle for the saw right? |
| Chris_Schwarz | No. |
| Ellis | And how do you gauge this difference? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Just choose a saw (they're cheap) with the right hang. |
| mikeg | i'm dense...i might have to have a picture |
| Chris_Schwarz | The difference is gauged by the 12 saws I have on my wall at work |
| LeeGrindinger | Is there a brand, chris, that pays close attention to the "hang" and how important is hand size to the hang of a saw? |
| Ellis | Picture holding a saw in your hand, Mike. Where does your index finger point? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I can post a picture on the boad after the chat. |
| mikeg | usually down the side of the handle |
| mikeg | in line with the blade |
| Ellis | Sure. I'd like to follow up on this with a little article. I'm sure you're doing the same. |
| Chris_Schwarz | What's interesting about the hang issue is that saws started to hang better later in the century |
| RobertTarr | If you will pardon the drive by gloat...I notice that the handle angle (I know now as hang) was different in 1850's Diston, never sharpened before, eagle medalion #8 I picked up this weekend for $1 |
| Chris_Schwarz | But the handles stunk |
| Stephen | older saws have their handles set higher than modern saws |
| JohnP | say more about what you mean by "center of the toothline" |
| Ellis | Later in the 19th century, Chris? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And in newer saws the steel is generally more consistent (by newer I mean Depression era) |
| Chris_Schwarz | The center of the toothline is the midpoint of the blade |
| mikeg | most of my saws are from that period |
| Ellis | That I believe. But is it better or worse? |
| JohnP | ok, thanks |
| Chris_Schwarz | I love the old handles, but the steel is spottier |
| SharpeningGuy | Hi Chris, SharpeningGuy here, get your saws? |
| Ellis | So the hang of the saw has to do with how your hand wraps around the handle, essentially? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I did Steve. Thanks much. I haven't had much chance to use them |
| Stephen | accounting for the many missing teeth |
| Chris_Schwarz | Actually the hang is where your fingers point to on the blade. |
| Ellis | So Chris, have you started a hand saw collection? |
| Chris_Schwarz | You can have good hang but a bad handle |
| Stephen | what is the ratio between crosscut and rip saws? |
| SharpeningGuy | I'm waiting for your review, hope you aren't too tough on me |
| Chris_Schwarz | Collection isn't the right word. |
| Ellis | Richt, chris, but that has to do with the angle of the handle to the saw, right? |
| steve.shanesy | Ellis, no, as I understand it, its the relationship of your hand relative to the cutting blade, what part of the blade does your hand point to. |
| Chris_Schwarz | More like shrine |
| mikeg | i've got an older Disston...the blade's missing about 3 or 4 inches from the tip and it's slightly bent...how best do i straighten it?...it's my favorite user |
| Chris_Schwarz | There are two schools of thought on straightening a blade |
| Chris_Schwarz | Smithing or bending |
| JohnP | by pointing, is this a line perpendicular to your knuckle line?? |
| Ellis | They have special anvils and hammers for tensioning saws. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Steve Cooke could weigh in on this better than me |
| mikeg | forget the smithing...lol |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've tried smithing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | On junk saws |
| Chris_Schwarz | Tom Law says you can botch the tensioning |
| crackerjack | what happened? |
| mikeg | the first 2 inches has a slight bend in it , i guess where it snaspped off |
| mikeg | was like that when i got the saw |
| Chris_Schwarz | It seems to work OK, but nothing like a stright blade |
| Ellis | The objective in a hand saw is more about straightening t he blade, right? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I guess there are so many good saws out there I pass on the bent ones. |
| mikeg | this one was given to me |
| Chris_Schwarz | A straight blade is key |
| Stephen | hammer on the convex side |
| Stephen | from the back to the teeth |
| mikeg | it works good still, but... |
| SharpeningGuy | I agree Chris |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do you use a cross peen? |
| mikeg | or a ballpeen |
| Stephen | no a smooth round faced tinners hammer |
| Chris_Schwarz | Interesting |
| LeeGrindinger | Perhaps i missed this by showing up late but could you give me a sense of who your magazine is written for...the focus and the target audience? |
| Stephen | hit on a convex anvil, an old wagon wheel tire |
| Ellis | I keep thinking of big domed anvils and planishing hammers. |
| Chris_Schwarz | PW is for the enthusiast. Hopefully as passionate as we are. |
| Ellis | But, I've never seen a skilled smith straighten a saw. |
| Stephen | those are nice if you have them Ellis |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's apparently a rare skill these days |
| steve.shanesy | Lee, the magazine is directed toward the home woodworker who really wants to develop his craft. |
| LeeGrindinger | Thanks |
| Ellis | What's your take on the demographics of your audience, C hris? |
| mikeg | the few that i have...pop ww, have some real good articles in them |
| Chris_Schwarz | Mostly guys, 55 |
| steve.shanesy | We try to combine the best of both handtool work and machine work. The bottom line for us is which is the most productive, the most practical. |
| SharpeningGuy | The magazines you sent me Chris were fantastic. I can't wait to start getting mine regularly |
| Lloyd | How is the chisel review coming? What Japanese chisels are you testing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Steve, excellent. |
| Ellis | Hmm, I surely fit the pattern :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | The chisel review stage one is done |
| Chris_Schwarz | I tested Matsumura blue steels, and two Nishiki chisels |
| Ellis | Can you discuss your test procedures? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Sure |
| Chris_Schwarz | I sharpened them all the same |
| steve.shanesy | Take it Chris. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Shaptons to 8,000 grit |
| Ellis | That oughta do it. |
| Christopher_Fitch | Hello Chris and Steve S. I have a question that may not be appropriate but I'm curious about it. What do you guys do *besides* woodworking/running the magazine? What other interests do you have? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Then we basically hit them in rounds of 20 smacks in redheart |
| Chris_Schwarz | Nasty stuff |
| SharpeningGuy | Ellis, the articles are really down to earth and understandable, I highly reccommend this magazine. |
| Ellis | Totally inbounds, Christopher. |
| Chris_Schwarz | After each round we examined them under a loupe |
| Chris_Schwarz | Then we pared end grain cherry |
| steve.shanesy | Christopher, I spend a lot of evenings and weekends in my home shop. A Busmans holiday |
| Chris_Schwarz | We had three editors do the examining and paring independently |
| SharpeningGuy | Parties at Chris's house !!! |
| Ellis | Yeah, SG, I like it myself. |
| SharpeningGuy | lol |
| Chris_Schwarz | Then we did 20 more wacks. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Eventually more than 120 |
| Chris_Schwarz | Then we strted all over again |
| Chris_Schwarz | Repeatability |
| Ellis | So basically you were doing an empirical test of how well the edge held under stress... |
| Chris_Schwarz | That was half of it |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think ergonomics are given short shrift |
| steve.shanesy | I really have to say, that for several of the edit staff, woodworking is a passion, not just a job. I've been at it for 25 years, the first 15 as a furniture/cabinetmaker. |
| mikeg | these were just your ordinary butt chisels? |
| Chris_Schwarz | In fact an uncomfortable chisel is pretty useless |
| Ellis | I'm curious whether you found a difference from the beginning tests to the ending tests? |
| Chris_Schwarz | The data was pretty consistent |
| Chris_Schwarz | And it matched up with data from a 1999 test |
| Chris_Schwarz | We also tested the new LNs |
| Ellis | So these were all Japanese chisels? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And Ashley Iles |
| Chris_Schwarz | Old Bucks |
| Chris_Schwarz | A Witherby |
| Chris_Schwarz | A Swan |
| Ellis | Ah. that will be sure to be of interest. |
| Ellis | Hello Jim. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And as Barr |
| RobertTarr | I smell a big chisel debate on the board |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Hi |
| Chris_Schwarz | The Barrs are really interesting |
| Chris_Schwarz | Hey Jim! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Chisels, saws, you name it |
| Ellis | I just remember Toshio talking about work hardening (or tempering) his chisels, by pounding them into something similar. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And that chisels get better with use |
| Ellis | Hey, there ought to be a debate. People want to know. |
| mikeg | mine get plenty of that...lol |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do you think that's true? |
| AndyL | Chris, those of us who just signed up for the magazine will be able to read the test results? or do we buy that issue? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I wonder if it's a comfort level thing, like a sweater or a good spouse |
| Christopher_Fitch | hehe |
| mikeg | probably |
| SharpeningGuy | Chris, have you guys tried anything that has been cryogenically treated |
| Chris_Schwarz | The review comes out in August |
| steve.shanesy | Andy, that depends on when you signed up. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's short |
| mikeg | just like your favorite plane or saw |
| Ellis | You're a dreamer, Chris, but you may be right about familiarity. :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'll post a complete report on WC |
| Chris_Schwarz | And I'm writing three pages on it for Fine Tool journal |
| Lloyd | Great! I am a teacher, so funds are low until Sept. anyway. |
| Ellis | That would be nice. It will be a nice review to have in our articles archive.... |
| Chris_Schwarz | I can't wait for Clarence's chat |
| AndyL | Just today Steve, Ellis posted a link to the special rate and I jumped all over it |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Chris did you get a chance to test the new LV prototype jack plane? |
| mikeg | how much longer is the special on for? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, in Ottawa in March |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | overall impression? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Rob Lee says it has changed since then, but I was impressed. |
| steve.shanesy | Andy, or anyone here, if you've just signed up and don't get the review, simply contact Chris and or me and we'll put a copy in the mail, gratis. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It has good presence and mass |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think it will sell *very* well |
| Christopher_Fitch | Chris: what about the bullnose plane? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I just got it on Friday |
| AndyL | Thanks ,Steve it's timely as probably my next"major" purchase |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's nice, though the sole is a bit out of true |
| Ellis | What planes does the average woodworker really need? Any thoughts on that? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Easily lappable. I'm a bit fussy |
| Chris_Schwarz | You need a smoother |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's the most used plane in my shop |
| mikeg | and a good block...LA |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yup |
| Ellis | Me too. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I couldn't work without a shoulder plane |
| mikeg | that's my most used plane |
| Ellis | Okay. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But maybe because my tenons need work |
| Chris_Schwarz | I also use a #7 a lot |
| mikeg | as a carpenter, the block can be shoved down into a nail apron |
| Ellis | Me too, Chris. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Really, it's those four planes for most work |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Do you get the feeling that using a smoother all the time wears on it and you spend to much time touching up the blade for final smoothing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Of course, I have many more..... |
| mikeg | don't we all |
| Russ_Allen | Hi meikj |
| Chris_Schwarz | I keep a couple blades for my smoother |
| Ellis | I must say my L-N block planes are very important in my shop. |
| Christopher_Fitch | the number grows ever larger... |
| Ellis | What's the difference, Chris? |
| Chris_Schwarz | So I can keep a sharp one for the final pass |
| meikj | hey russ - crowded in here tonight! |
| mikeg | as long as swmbo isn't looking over my shoulder when i'm on Ebay...lol |
| Stephen | do you use any wooden planes Chris? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ellis, just sharpness |
| Chris_Schwarz | I have a C & W that I really really like |
| Ellis | Wow. That sounds like a really efficient way of doing it without losing your momentum. |
| Chris_Schwarz | The mouth is as big as a gnat's behind |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's the only thing that will really plane the wild stuff sometimes |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Ellis that's a great point as to hearing any tips to keep you momentum when working with hand tools |
| Stephen | notice the difference in the center of gravity between metal and wooden planes? |
| Ellis | Yeah, precision counts a lot at that level of shaving. |
| Chris_Schwarz | One note for the group. David Charlesworth has an article coming out comparing infills to Bedrock LNs |
| Chris_Schwarz | Stephen, oh yes |
| Chris_Schwarz | I am so clumsy with wooden jointers. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Don McConnell, our hand tool guy, laughs when i use one |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's a different center of gravity |
| mikeg | can a hock iron be used on a transitional? |
| Ellis | Thanks Jim. For me the trick was always to just sharpen in no time flat. But a spare blade is a solid alternative. |
| Lloyd | WIll you guys be back in Ontario in Jan. at the WoodWorks show? I like my Knight planes. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Mike, I've never tried a hock in a transitional |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ron Hock would know |
| Ellis | I love them, Chris. I like transitionals more, but you have to tune the mouth and throat. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think we are going back to Ontario |
| steve.shanesy | We'll be in Ontario, with bells on. |
| Chris_Schwarz | S. Cal in January? |
| Chris_Schwarz | You bet |
| Ellis | That is a very nice show. |
| mikeg | do y'all ever get to greenville, SC? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Old Deltagrams |
| Stephen | less chatter with wooden bodied planes |
| Ellis | Search our Shop Shots, Thriller. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Seriously |
| Chris_Schwarz | Don McConnell swears by his woodies. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And I won't argue with him |
| Chris_Schwarz | I just started with metal planes |
| Chris_Schwarz | and so I've stuck there for the most part. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But soon we're entering the world of hollows and rounds |
| Ellis | I'd like to go to a users swap meet, where knowledgeable collectors show off the best planes and saws. |
| steve.shanesy | The old Deltagrams had some great stuff in them. I swear I sometimes feel we are just recycling today |
| RobertTarr | can't wait for that one |
| Ellis | larry Williams is your man for that. |
| mikeg | supposed to go to an estate auction this weekend |
| Chris_Schwarz | Tod Herrli is doing an article for us on it |
| Stephen | those will be wood Chris |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'm going up to his place on Monday |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, H & R are difficult to float out in steel |
| Ellis | Is he a maker or a user? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Both |
| Chris_Schwarz | Did a nice video on the process |
| Russ_Allen | Tod is the guy with the h&r video |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's really easy stuff |
| Chris_Schwarz | He even shows you how to make floats |
| Ellis | How are you going to integrate these in-depth hand tool articles into the magazine? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And thoise, by the way, are great for through mortises |
| TerryS | Anyone here made a set of floats? Any advice? |
| Russ_Allen | I have a pair of floats that Tod made me |
| Chris_Schwarz | Integration! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good question |
| Ellis | I have one from Larry Williams. |
| mikeg | What shows do y'all do in the South? |
| Ellis | Thought so |
| Chris_Schwarz | I do love power tools, too. There I said it. |
| mikeg | lol |
| Ellis | Okay. Now you can stay. :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | My therapist recommended this |
| Chris_Schwarz | Much better |
| SharpeningGuy | Chris !!! Say it ain't so !!! |
| Stephen | we all have problems |
| Ellis | Well, I think t here is a balance in what your target reader is interested in. |
| AndyL | now if you can say"I'm a user,not a collector".... |
| Chris_Schwarz | You cannot give up the power tool stuff |
| AndyL | lol |
| Chris_Schwarz | Andy, I can't say that.... |
| steve.shanesy | Hand tools, power tools, its all about the craft. I don't understand why folks want to take sides. It shouldn't even be an issue. Both belong, both are necessary. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Exactly boss |
| AndyL | Me either, Chris |
| Ellis | It's refreshing to concentrate more on what people don't know than on what they statistically want to hear. |
| Stephen | anyone can use powertools |
| Christopher_Fitch | How about the new magazine? Are you planning on producing that magazine more frequently? |
| Chris_Schwarz | anyone can use hand tools |
| mikeg | not really stephen |
| tcaley | But most magazine seem to only focus on power tools, very few hand tool articles. |
| Chris_Schwarz | The next issue is coming out in July |
| SharpeningGuy | The room is spinning ... Help !!! |
| Ellis | Right, because reader surveys say that people are most likely to read power tool articles. |
| SharpeningGuy | lol |
| Lloyd | Chris and steve has the LV sharpener replaced the Shaptons in your sharpening since your article? |
| Chris_Schwarz | They just need encouragement. |
| tcaley | they should survey us then....... |
| Chris_Schwarz | The LV sharpener is still in use |
| steve.shanesy | There are some magazines that want to give people what they want, while others try to lead. As an editor, I believe, and I know Chris will agree, that's its our job to lead. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But I can't give up stones |
| Christopher_Fitch | Have you found that the no-ad style in the new magazine is popular with the readers? |
| Ellis | That's a bold and exciting position to take, Chris. I think most of us agree with your focus. |
| Carole_in_VA | I want to learn to use both...it would be nice to have a mag with a healthy balance! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Carol, glad to hear that |
| Chris_Schwarz | As to ads, some people really like ads |
| mikeg | mostly what it takes is patience and practice in using power or hand tools |
| Chris_Schwarz | Sounds crazy, but it's tru |
| Ellis | There are a lot of ways that magazines determine their direction. Most play by the numbers. |
| Carole_in_VA | Ads are the only way I have of knowing what's out there...I live in the sticks! |
| crackerjack | As long as you keep some hand tool content I'll keep reading it. |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | I think the key to hand tools is learning how to sharpen them. What's you opinion? |
| meikj | the new magazine seems like a more fine tuned "woodsmith". is that the market you are trying to hit? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Sharpening is the gateway skill |
| mikeg | yep |
| Ellis | Sure, ads are important communication tools. The market knows what's new. |
| Chris_Schwarz | and not just to hand tools |
| SharpeningGuy | now your'e talking |
| steve.shanesy | Look, I'm not ashamed to admit that I had to be sold on hand tool use. But I came from a commercial, get-it-done enviornment. Now I understand that our readers are pursuing their craft for enrichment and enjoyment. Hand tools have a very definite place. |
| mikeg | more people get hurt with dull tools than anything else |
| Chris_Schwarz | I never get tired of talking about sharpening |
| Ellis | Gateway skill. Gotta remember that one. Good term |
| SharpeningGuy | ya gotta luv this guy !!! LOL |
| Ellis | I did an editorial about it once. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Once you can sharpen.... |
| Carole_in_VA | Guess I'm not thru the gate yet. :o( |
| Chris_Schwarz | carving |
| Chris_Schwarz | turning |
| Chris_Schwarz | planes |
| RobertTarr | I normally flip right past the "6 must have power tools for every shop" articles, but would find it refreshing to see it phrased arround tools, and include the most used hand tools and power tools for someone starting to get into this hobby (past power drill and circular saw) |
| Chris_Schwarz | chisels |
| Ellis | It is truly the key to all woodworking operations.' |
| crackerjack | I had to learn to sharpen when I got my first pocketknife |
| mikeg | yes Ellis...even in power tools |
| Lloyd | Please keep up the hand tool articles. I love the combination that you have, but I really love the hand tool stuff. |
| crackerjack | I was 7 I think |
| Chris_Schwarz | The next issue of Woodworking magazine will upset a lot of people when it comes to sharpening |
| Ellis | I would just like to see sharpening reduced to its simplest essentials instead of a lot of elaborate contraptions and procedures. |
| Christopher_Fitch | Well for my limited expreience, I must say I'm pleased with my waterstones... Given all the info on sharpening that's available, I am slowly improving... |
| Carole_in_VA | I am getting passable duty from my planes using the scary sharp method, but then I don't know if I have ever seen a perfectly tuned plane so I have nothing to compare it with. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good point |
| mikeg | I can sharpen a chisel or a plane iron, but can't sharpen a knife to cut hot butter |
| Chris_Schwarz | You need to know sharp to get sharp |
| SharpeningGuy | why Chris ? |
| Carole_in_VA | Exactly! |
| Chris_Schwarz | I do a tutorial on sharpening chisels that defies a lot of the dogma out there |
| Chris_Schwarz | Welcome back Stephen |
| Chris_Schwarz | Like the fact taht you need a medium-grit stone |
| Ellis | What's the gist of the tutorial? |
| Christopher_Fitch | Ellis: I know what you mean, but one thing I have noticed is that there are little bits of knowledge that are often missed or don't seem important until you take the time to sharpen a great deal |
| Chris_Schwarz | People sharpen too much. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Better edges through less sharpening |
| steve.shanesy | Are we talking about honing then, Chris. |
| Chris_Schwarz | More thought, less motion |
| meikj | now you're talking. same folks that are in the perfectly flat sole society. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, mostly honing. |
| mikeg | a lot of carpewnters just use the belt sander with 120 grit and call it good |
| Carole_in_VA | Difference between shapening and honing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | More a difference between grinding and honing |
| Ellis | Well, that's another extension of this, Christopher F. You need to practice to get the hang of it. It's like learning to tango. |
| Carole_in_VA | Ooooh I love to tango! Wanna dance Ellis? :-) |
| steve.shanesy | Well, a lot of carpenters are just hogging off material. that edge will crumble in a heartbeat. And they are working in softwoods. |
| Ellis | The scary sharp method is not a final destination for someone who wants to learn to sharpen. But it is quick. |
| mikeg | mostly |
| Ellis | Carole, that sounds like fun. |
| SharpeningGuy | you mean they tango in the Virginia sticks ? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Think about this: six strokes on a stone and then stop |
| Christopher_Fitch | perhaps the one thing I have learned that seems to be very important is sharpening in a consistent manner... such as making sure the blade is held at the same angle. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Examine you edge |
| Carole_in_VA | What stones should I get Chris? I have none now. |
| Chris_Schwarz | If you use waterstones, you're probably almost done |
| mikeg | scaryshasrp is the method i use because it's cheap and i'm a cheap bastartd...lol |
| Christopher_Fitch | Ellis: Having just jumped from "scary sharp" to waterstones, I completely understand that point |
| Chris_Schwarz | I like waterstones. They are also cheap |
| Chris_Schwarz | And they cut fast |
| Ellis | Y'know what, Mike. The cost isn't an issue really. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But they are messy |
| steve.shanesy | Hey Mike, you're like a lot of woodworkers I know. |
| Russ_Allen | Radio shack makes a $10 magnifier with a light that's great to see what the edge looks like. I think it's a 50x |
| Chris_Schwarz | And need maintenance |
| Lloyd | Okay, Ellis, what is the final destination? |
| Ellis | Even that isn't a problem once you figure it out. |
| Ellis | Higher grits, Lloyd. |
| mikeg | i do have a stone i keep in my tool box |
| Chris_Schwarz | You also can buy a $10 30x jewelers loupe |
| Chris_Schwarz | Which is good for examining edges |
| Christopher_Fitch | for the mess, I made a tray...really keeps it in check :) |
| Russ_Allen | put does it have a light? :-) It really helps me |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ditto that |
| mikeg | is it best to sharpen by eye or use a guide? |
| Ellis | I can put a 5000 or 8000 grit edge on a blade faster than I can put a 2000 grit edge on it with sandpaper. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I have a light in a bench dog on my bench A $10 Staples special |
| Chris_Schwarz | I use the $10 side-clamp guide |
| crackerjack | Mikeg ,for knives ,look for a Lansky sharpener. |
| Chris_Schwarz | for chisels and plane irons |
| Christopher_Fitch | Chris: what kind of light from staples? |
| mikeg | thnx CJ |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | I think people get caught up in the polished but after showing them it's no sharp they seem to understand |
| Ellis | A light in a bench dog???? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Just a cheap desk light with an articulated arm. |
| mikeg | i had the LV guide until the fire |
| meikj | scary sharp really got me started. i still use abrasive sheets, but now try to match the grits i use with what waterstones most people use. the micron graded sheets last much longer and cut much quicker than normal SC wet/dry paper. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I made a bung (can I say that?) |
| Ellis | Oh, I get it.. |
| Chris_Schwarz | For a bench dog hole |
| Ellis | Nope you're censored. |
| Chris_Schwarz | dang |
| Stephen | outside of dogs, books are a mans best friend |
| TerryS | Chris, the best advice you gave me was to "pick a sharpening system and stick with it for a good long time." That was a great article. |
| Ellis | What else can you call it |
| Chris_Schwarz | Drilled a hole in the bung for the post of the lamp |
| Chris_Schwarz | Thanks Terry |
| Stephen | inside a dog it is too dark to read |
| Ellis | Whew. Now I get it. |
| Ellis | I'm into oblique sidelight myself. |
| Christopher_Fitch | Chris: something like this: http://www.staples.com/Catalog/Browse/Sku.asp?PageType=1&Sku=408203 |
| Chris_Schwarz | So I can put this lamp anywhere on my bench that I have a dog hole |
| Christopher_Fitch | ? |
| Ellis | Excellent idea, Chris. I may have to try that. |
| Chris_Schwarz | yup |
| Carole_in_VA | I have one of those lamps. I wouldn't trade it for anything! |
| Christopher_Fitch | cool... |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's great for finding plane tracks |
| mikeg | i've got one of those gathering dust...guess i'll have to dust it off |
| Ellis | Okay, so if you had to get just two stones, what would they be? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Easy |
| Lloyd | Ellis, I have been trying to use the scary sharp method, and I am afraid that you are right. I have been thinking of the LV system "still sandpaper" or the Shapton. |
| steve.shanesy | Those lamps are great for turning too. |
| Chris_Schwarz | A DMT dupSharp and a 6,000 King |
| Chris_Schwarz | If I could have three stones, I'd add a 1,000 king or shapton or norton |
| Ellis | I will never be a convert to sandpaper systems. But that's me. I don't use jigs either. |
| Christopher_Fitch | interesting. Have you had much experience with the Norton waterstones? |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Have you found that the DMT wears quickly on the course side? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, I've used the Nortons for a couple years at home |
| mikeg | it's been fun y'all and very informative...appreciate your time Chris and Steve |
| Chris_Schwarz | No weare problems on the DMTs. Usually it's just clogging |
| Ellis | Aha. Here's another way of aking it... If you already had a good 800 grit stone, what would be the next two grits you bought? |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's hard to ruin the DMTs unless you press WAY too hard |
| steve.shanesy | Hey Mike , our pleasure. We love it. Hope to get invited back again. |
| mikeg | hope so steve |
| Ellis | They do wear down in time though, I've noticed. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ellis, probably a polshing stone |
| RobertTarr | Ellis, was that 800 or 8000? |
| Ellis | 800 |
| Chris_Schwarz | Try sending them back to DMT. They clean them and they come back much better |
| Chris_Schwarz | They do cut really fast out of the gate |
| Chris_Schwarz | Really, the key is to not use too much pressure when sharpening on anything |
| Chris_Schwarz | That's a big mistake lots make |
| Christopher_Fitch | shifting gears. Chris, you have produced a number of workbench building articles. I have built two of yours. What is your favorite bench? |
| Ellis | What I'm getting at is that there are really two classes of sharpening: one is at the forming stage, where you're removing a lot of steel; and the other is at the sharpening stage, where you are taking it to a final edge. The latter is the most common shop operation, so it needs its own regime. |
| Chris_Schwarz | My next one |
| Chris_Schwarz | The Joinery Bench |
| Christopher_Fitch | the one you mentioned.. |
| Christopher_Fitch | ahhh |
| Chris_Schwarz | Does your back hurt when dovetailing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Bending over to mortise? |
| Ellis | Which issue was that in, Chris? |
| Chris_Schwarz | It hasn't been published yet |
| Ellis | Aha. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'm thinking of putting the prelim drawings on WC for comment |
| RobertTarr | Please do |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's a small high bench with a big twin screw |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | I try to sit down when dovetailing it's easier to get the chisel square |
| Ellis | Interesting notion. Let's discuss. |
| Christopher_Fitch | that would be excellent... I'm very curious about it after picking up one of those record hold-downs you mentioned |
| Chris_Schwarz | Old-time dovetailers used a cut and run method |
| crackerjack | I alternate between sitting and standing |
| Chris_Schwarz | It involved stacking parts on the bench |
| Ellis | I used to have a scraping bench. |
| Ellis | I stand |
| Chris_Schwarz | Your cut on one piece would score the part below |
| Ellis | It's important not to chop into the benchtop. |
| Chris_Schwarz | That's how they cut dovetails on 28" benches |
| Stephen | gang sawing dovetails |
| Chris_Schwarz | and they were shorter, too |
| steve.shanesy | I prefer standing too. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, it's like gang sawing in a way |
| Christopher_Fitch | hmm... |
| Chris_Schwarz | The would stack the parts up quite high |
| Chris_Schwarz | Didn't really use a vise |
| Ellis | But you could only cut from one to the next, right? |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's hard to describe... a lost technique really |
| Stephen | cut at a comfortable height |
| Ellis | Is it useful today, Chris? |
| crackerjack | tricky keeping things from moving around |
| Chris_Schwarz | Your cut on the tailboard would score the board below for the pin cut |
| Chris_Schwarz | less layout. |
| Chris_Schwarz | more speed |
| Chris_Schwarz | and work at a comfortable height |
| Ellis | More control needed, too. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Skill etc |
| Chris_Schwarz | So instead, we're going to make a higher bench |
| Stephen | the scoring is more accurate that laying out again |
| Chris_Schwarz | For today's backs |
| Ellis | Yeah, I've never done that, but it sounds like a reasonable way to do it. |
| Chris_Schwarz | If you've ever dovetailed on a 38" bench or a 40" bench it's a joy |
| Stephen | you layout with the dovetail saw |
| Chris_Schwarz | Much less fatiguing |
| Stephen | no need to pick up a pencil or scribe |
| Chris_Schwarz | Stephen, exactly |
| Chris_Schwarz | you got it |
| Ellis | I have benches at 35" and 33 " height. That covers me for planing and chopping. I have thoughta bout getting a Noden bench, too. |
| Stephen | minimum tool handling |
| Chris_Schwarz | We're setting up Noden's bench now. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Nice |
| Chris_Schwarz | Also, this joinery bench will have serious tool storage below |
| Ellis | Yeah, it is a fine idea./ |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'll get the CAD finished in a couple weeks and post a pdf. |
| steve.shanesy | The Noden bench is an intersting concept. I've used adjutable benches, but this one is infinitely adjustable. Great concept. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Then we'll have the denizens review it |
| JohnP | great evening, but must say goodnight. |
| Lloyd | Will you be doing a report? I have been speaking with Mr. Noden. With my back the height adj. sound good. |
| Ellis | Prepare thyself :-) |
| crackerjack | how long till the bench article is out? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Probably February |
| Chris_Schwarz | Lonnie Bird is doing an article in that issue on dovetailing for us |
| Chris_Schwarz | It should be the dovetailing issue |
| crackerjack | cool |
| Ellis | Geoff Noden is a good pal of mine. I can tell you his bench is a wonderful invention. |
| Stephen | that is why they invented jacks and carving stands |
| Chris_Schwarz | if my plans don't go awry |
| Chris_Schwarz | The LV carving bench is part of my inspiration |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | you have 6 or more months of articles prepared? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Not always |
| Ellis | Now how could that happen, Chris? |
| steve.shanesy | Is was at Lonnie's place a couple weeks ago. His work is incredible. I've seen thousands of pieces, and i think his is the best. |
| Ellis | (Not ever. :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | We have bits and pieces of February planned right now. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Filling in the holes is the hardest part |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, Lonnie is incredible. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Wish I had 10 percent of his talent |
| Ellis | Lonnie is a great craftsman. He's really come into his own |
| Chris_Schwarz | And that school is in a great place |
| Chris_Schwarz | Beautiful country |
| Ellis | Have you attended a class with him, Chris? |
| steve.shanesy | His detailing is amazing. I've never seen such crisp work. |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | How skilled is he at conveying his skills in person? |
| Chris_Schwarz | No, just photo shoots. Kara Gebhart took a class there. |
| crackerjack | You ever do any articles on hammers,history of,types,etc. |
| Chris_Schwarz | She loved it. Built a table. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jack, not hammers yet. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Any ideas for me? |
| Ellis | Great. |
| Ellis | Jackhammers? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I love the Warringtons |
| crackerjack | lol |
| steve.shanesy | Lonnie taught for years at Rio Grande College. He's as much a teacher as his is a craftsman. |
| Christopher_Fitch | so Steve, Chris, a difficult question: Who would you say was the biggest influence on you in woodworking? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Very patient. |
| Carole_in_VA | His books are good |
| Lloyd | Thanks. Got to go. |
| crackerjack | I have a nice Maydole |
| Chris_Schwarz | Don't know the Maydole |
| Ellis | Me either |
| Chris_Schwarz | Biggest influence? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Grandfather and father. |
| crackerjack | I believe he invented the claw hammer style we know |
| Chris_Schwarz | I have so many heroes. |
| Ellis | Aha, CJ |
| Chris_Schwarz | Charles Hayward. |
| Stephen | and why does a cabinetmaker need a claw hammer? |
| crackerjack | I don't know much but I'm interested |
| Ellis | To bang on his bench dogs. |
| steve.shanesy | That's a very hard question. Different people influence me in various ways. George Nakashima was a true hero of mine and Tage Frid was too. But then I worked with some world class craftsman in Los Angeles that just blew my socks off every day of the week. |
| crackerjack | I use mine around the shop all the time |
| Stephen | we never bend nails do we? |
| Christopher_Fitch | cool... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jeez, you think I could have some better answers Christopher |
| Chris_Schwarz | Sorry |
| Christopher_Fitch | hehehe |
| Stephen | Hayward is good |
| Christopher_Fitch | well as I said it's a difficult question. |
| Christopher_Fitch | :) |
| Ellis | Maybe it comes down to furniture styles and styles of working |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've been thiking we should do the 10 heroes of woodworking |
| Ellis | Two separate questions, or are they? |
| Christopher_Fitch | hmm.. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Probably true. |
| Ellis | You'll just disappoint all the rest of them, Chris. :-) |
| Christopher_Fitch | that's true, you could split it into inspirtions in skill, styles |
| Stephen | People prefer new styles of working and old styles of furniture |
| Chris_Schwarz | But I think craftsmanship inspires me even when the style does not |
| steve.shanesy | Look, there are designers and there are craftsmen. Occassionally, they cross. When you get the hybrid, its something special. |
| Ellis | Craftsmanship is definitely a common denominator. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's what attracts me. |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | With so many skill sets required to be a whole talented craftsman you would be pressed to limit it to 10 people |
| Chris_Schwarz | Ellis, who influenced you, not to turn the tables |
| Ellis | So maybe we can hang a definition on craftsmanship...? |
| steve.shanesy | I'd agree that 10 is very limiting. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jim, indeed. Maybe 30 |
| Christopher_Fitch | Chris: I hear that... my wife and I argue about how a house looks. I may find a particular house not very attractive but if the owners do a nice job of presetning the house and the landscape, I will find it to be nice |
| Ellis | I was more into ends than means. Greene and Greene really revved me up. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I respect a lot more work than I like |
| Ellis | Check out "An Old Way of Seeing", Christopher |
| Chris_Schwarz | The Greenes were amazing, as was the shop that did their work |
| Ellis | We have a review of it in our books department |
| Chris_Schwarz | I love that book. Changed my life |
| steve.shanesy | I think a true appreication for the craft overcomes personal taste. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I own two copies. One to loan. |
| Ellis | yes, the Halls were really the craftsmen |
| Christopher_Fitch | ellis: is that by jonathon hale? |
| Ellis | Right |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've never looked at Greek Revival the same way |
| Christopher_Fitch | ok |
| Chris_Schwarz | I used to like the stuff.... until I realized what it replaced |
| steve.shanesy | At the risk of offending, the Greene's are the essence of A&C/ |
| Ellis | It's really ironic that for a lot of people it represents a whole new way of seeing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I bought a copy about 10 years ago. probably read it five times |
| Stephen | Classic Revival and Fedral Period are the best |
| crackerjack | I think an article about important people to woodworking that many woodworkers don't know much about would be interesting |
| Ellis | Essential? Sorta. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Interesting idea Jack. Who would be on that list? |
| Stephen | Phyfe, Seymore, MacIntire |
| crackerjack | Tage Frid for one |
| Ellis | Steve, the essence of A&C is more philosophical than stylistic. |
| Ellis | To me |
| steve.shanesy | It's important to respect our heritage. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Agreed. Has the A & C movement really ended? |
| crackerjack | Most I've never heard of |
| Christopher_Fitch | ellis: Ian Kirby stresses that alot... |
| Ellis | Classic styles were the height of craft in a lot of areas. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Barnsley! |
| Chris_Schwarz | I must build stuff by Barnsley. |
| Stephen | Goddard & Townsend |
| Chris_Schwarz | There's a table in this new A& C book that has be totally juiced by Sidney Barnsley. |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Good luck on tracing down Barnsley Books |
| Stephen | Belter |
| Chris_Schwarz | Stephen, I'm writing this down |
| Stephen | Hepplewhite |
| steve.shanesy | Well, as Chris well knows, I'm not a fan of A&C. Crate furniture, I call it. But the Greenes influence from Japan took the hard edges off and made it elegant. |
| Stephen | Sheraton |
| Stephen | Chippendale |
| Chris_Schwarz | No one from rococco? |
| Stephen | The Adams Brothers |
| Chris_Schwarz | You're going to write this article for me |
| Stephen | Tom represents the rococcos |
| Chris_Schwarz | I should do this more often |
| Ellis | Right, Steve. That would have been my objection to it being the essence. More like the evolved state. |
| steve.shanesy | Geez, what about the Eames? |
| Stephen | sure |
| Ellis | I guess we're talking the same thing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Noguchi? |
| Ellis | Chris how are you going to get all that into an article?? :-) |
| Stephen | Pergolisis and Canelletos work on the Herculeneum and Pompeii |
| Chris_Schwarz | I don't know. Maybe have a Furniture Idol competition |
| crackerjack | Chris,that would be mutually satisfying. I believe everyone's enjoying this |
| Ellis | That would sure be off the beaten path, Stephen. :-) |
| Christopher_Fitch | hehehe |
| Ellis | Okay, so the point may be that craftsmanship is where you find it . |
| Chris_Schwarz | They found planes at Pompeii, so I guess those people were OK |
| Christopher_Fitch | ahahah |
| Ellis | G&G made A&C more lyrical, for sure. |
| Stephen | The Romans had infills, imagine that |
| Ellis | Sure. They found hide glue in the tombs in Egypt, didn't they, Stephen? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And dovetails |
| Ellis | Sure, they didn't have screws. |
| Stephen | yes and in the \ |
| Stephen | Dead Sea Area |
| steve.shanesy | Craftsmanship is craftsmanship and good design is good design. all the craftmanship in the world won't make up for bad design. |
| AndyL | Chris and Steve thanks for taking the time,I look forward to the magazine showing up..now if I can stop reading WoodCentral long enough.... |
| Stephen | 8000 years old |
| AndyL | Thanks to you Ellis as well,night all |
| Chris_Schwarz | Thanks for coming by |
| Christopher_Fitch | you know that's something I think that we have an advantage with... living in our time...or more specifically in the information age as it is called. |
| Ellis | Some of the Asian hand tools go back that far. |
| steve.shanesy | Hey Andy, Woodcentral get you your daily fix. |
| Stephen | but Hogarth and others removed a lot of the bad design by simple mathematical analysis |
| Chris_Schwarz | Some would say the Asian tools never evolved from the Egyptian period |
| Ellis | I'm wary of formulaic design, Stephen. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Pull saws look a lot like Egyptian ssaws |
| Stephen | Central and South American tools date way back |
| Ellis | More like formulas follow art. |
| Stephen | come on Ellis |
| Dan_D | I think we can get some good milage out of the critiques board. I enjoyed reading the last thread that was there. |
| steve.shanesy | Yes, Hogarth sort of wrote the book on aethetics and the nature of craft and art. |
| Stephen | Palladian figured it all out |
| Christopher_Fitch | In older days, woodworking knowledge was guarded closesly within the guilds... or many bits of knowledge were lost only to be discovered again. Yet in our time, there are vast amounts of knowledge available now...and we can do things like get on woodcentral chats! to exchange information. |
| Ellis | There is art in formulas, but the instinct is totally individual. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Even Old Way of Seeing cautions against the golden section as a guiding design force |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | I am curious to hear you thoughts on avoiding the dreaded tearout when using hand tools |
| Ellis | Right. A twist is always fun. |
| Chris_Schwarz | High angles Jim |
| Ellis | Always plane sugar pine |
| Stephen | They are guidelines not rules |
| Chris_Schwarz | High angles make all the difference. |
| Stephen | there are no rules except wood moves |
| Chris_Schwarz | And not just 50 degrees |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've seen wooden 18th century jointers with 60 degree pitch |
| Ellis | What is the York pitch? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And then you can say farewell to your tight mouth |
| Dan_D | My C & W's are at 55 |
| steve.shanesy | Even the best design can becme boring thrugh repetition. The eye needs excitement, but the sense of proprotion and scale must always be there. |
| Chris_Schwarz | York is 50 if I'm not mistaken |
| Stephen | you are correct |
| SharpeningGuy | yes chris |
| Chris_Schwarz | Once you cross 55 things change |
| Chris_Schwarz | the surface looks different |
| Chris_Schwarz | more like scraping |
| Ellis | Agreed, Steve. This is making me want to go out to the shop and plane something. |
| Chris_Schwarz | but you can plane Australian woods |
| Dan_D | and concrete? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And work off those extra pounds |
| Ellis | Sure, as long as the combination of factors adds up. |
| Dan_D | aren't they the same? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good bedding, of course |
| Chris_Schwarz | Sharp iron |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Hand tools are good for keeping your blood sugar down also |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'm not sold on the tight mouth at high angles |
| Chris_Schwarz | Show me the mouth on a card scraper |
| Chris_Schwarz | And good for keeping your wallet lighter |
| Ellis | Hmm. Good point |
| Chris_Schwarz | Some people argue that a card scraper is actually a low-angle tool |
| Chris_Schwarz | It depends on how you view the burr |
| Ellis | What do you say? |
| steve.shanesy | Hey, guys, this is great. This was billed as about Pop Wood, but really it's about woodworking, getting down to it, and really, that's what Pop Wood's all about these days. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And how you turn it |
| tcaley | I have to sign off all. Thank you Chris and Steve for a very enjoyable chat. Good night. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Thanks for coming by |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | With card scrapers you tend to dig holes trying to clean up tearout |
| crackerjack | Me too,I really enjoyed this. Thanks and Goodnight |
| Chris_Schwarz | Agreed |
| Ellis | I certainly appreciate both of you coming by |
| Carole_in_VA | Me too...past my bedtime. Enjoyed it Chris, Steve and Ellis! Thanks. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Glad to do it. I am a woodworking geek |
| Ellis | It went overtime, but it has been a good one. Thanks so much, everyone. |
| steve.shanesy | Good night all, and thanks Ellis./ |
| Ellis | We all are, Chris. Thanks again. We'll have a transcript up in the next day or so. |
| Jim_in_Burlington_Ontario | Thanks and good night |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yep, anything I missed in the posts, just ping me |
| Chris_Schwarz | Farewell. |
| Tom | Thanks and good eve |
| SharpeningGuy | you are most welcome Ellis / Chris / Steve |
| RobertTarr | Thanks for the time and for sharing and for the great offer on the mag. Have a great week |
| Dan_D | thanks Steve and Chris |
| Chris_Schwarz | Thanks Steve |
| SharpeningGuy | thanks my friend |
| Dan_D | also thanks to Ellis for making it possible |
| steve.shanesy | And thank you, Chris. |
| Chris_Schwarz | No problem boss |
| Russ_Allen | I just took you up on the subscription deal. But why no discover card? (that's where I work!!) |
| steve.shanesy | Night Ellie |