CHATROOM

EDITED CHAT LOG

a Special Guest Chat with
ROBIN LEE
with Guest Host Chris Schwarz

Tuesday, January 31, 2006
9:30 pm EST

Ellis It is our pleasure tonight to have a special guest, Rob Lee, and a special guest host, Chris Schwarz, for a chat that I'm sure will be enlightening. I know that hand tools will be a recurrent theme. Chris, it's all yours.
Rob Lee Uh oh
Chris Schwarz Thanks Ellis.
Ellis Spotlight
Chris Schwarz First, an administrative note: When you are asking or answering a question, would you please begin your statement with the name of the person you are addressing? For example: "Chris: Get a haircut, you hippie." Thanks, and let's get on with it.
Chris Schwarz So....Hand planes: bevel up vs. bevel down.
Chris Schwarz Stanley's bevel-up bench planes weren't very successful, so why are bevel-up bench planes so popular now? What has changed here? Woodworking? Manufacturing? Marketing?
Rob Lee Chris - there are a number of reasons why a configuration works (or doesn't) at a given time.... Stanley had the wrong material, and the wrong context....
Chris Schwarz So they had a 7" bevel-up plane (a block plane) but once you get to 9" or 10" or 14"....
Chris Schwarz I mean. It's weird. Stanley had a bazillion block planes.
Rob Lee Chris - it's not the length of the plane....it's the use...
Chris Schwarz You mean butcher blocks?
Rob Lee Stanley focussed on low-angle applications -- not a low-angle platform...
Rob Lee Butcher blocks, shooting etc...
Chris Schwarz I guess I've always been surprised that more users didn't grab the bevel-up config.
Rob Lee What we're focussing on the mechanics of wood failure.
Ellis Isn't the variability of the effective cutting angle - including angles less than 45 degrees -- the major asset?
Rob Lee Chris - there are significant challenges to making a bevel up plane, with a very low bed angle....
Chris Schwarz Rob: But not in a small configuration?
Rob Lee Ellis - absolutely... it's all about the wood. (Great title for an article, eh Chris?)
Chris Schwarz Is there a scale issue?
Chris Schwarz When you get to 2" wide or something, things get wiggy?
Rob Lee Chris - not sure what you mean....
Chico... Perhaps strength (of the plane body) issue????
Chris Schwarz Rob: OK: a 1.5" block plane. They make a lot of them -- low-angle, adjustable mouth.
Rob Lee Chico - a plane is just a holder for a chisel....
Chris Schwarz But you get to a certain size... and then they make nothing of note.
Ellis Wouldn't all the dimensions be relative, Chris? Not to mention the force needed to use the tool?
Rob Lee Chris - yes.... that's why we'll be adding the vertical tote to our LA Block.....it makes a Bevel-up #3.... a sweet plane....
Chris Schwarz Rob: June catalog...
Chico... Obviously Rob... though that "holder" has to remain rigid and stay in shape that was originally given.
William_OTC Chris, they successfully marketed nothing of note. They made a few interesting planes.
Chris Schwarz Chico: And the trick is that it's a "holder" -- very important.
Chris Schwarz William: I of course overstated in an effort to get a goat. Sorry. :-)
Rob Lee Chico - absolutely....that's why the chisel (blade) has to be well restrained...
Chico... Chris, Rob... you guys are losing me.. what else do you mean by "holder" other than its obvious purpose?
Chico... Ok, Rob just said that we're in the same page.
William_OTC It is more than a holder. There is also the steel sole in front of the edge, to control tearout.
Chris Schwarz Chico: Sorry. Not meaning to be obtuse. Just that it's harder for a plane to hold a blade pitched at a low-angle.
Rob Lee One of the interesting things about a LA platform - is forces are exerted more in-line with the axis of the blade.... the more vertical the blade gets, the more the wood tries to "strum" the blade tip....
Chico... Yes Chris I agree absolutely, that's what I was saying too.
Paul_Kierstead Rut, row, BUvBD
Ellis There's a very interesting point, Rob.
Chris Schwarz Paul: I think the real differences are not always discussed as much.
Chico... So Rob, sides of the BU planes are hefty...they are so for strength issues, right?
Chris Schwarz Paul: The weight is distributed differently.
Rob Lee Two of the most useful things retained from Physics.... F=MA, and ya can't push a rope.....
Chris Schwarz Paul: The controls are placed differently.
Paul_Kierstead Chris: yes, I would agree. However, *I* suspect that the differences are ... overemphasised for most applications
Chris Schwarz Paul: And the rear tote has a decided differentness to it as a result.
Rob Lee Chico - a lot of our bevel-up designs take into account the forces exerted on the blade....
Rob Lee ...having more mass lower is a good thing...
Rob Lee ...on the BUS - the centre of gravity is under 1/2" .....
Chris Schwarz Rob: Generally I agree. It's just different. Not a negative.
Chris Schwarz Rob: The only place where it flummoxes me is in edge jointing.
Paul_Kierstead I think the wood plane vs metal is not analyzed enough. We often hear about things like increased mass, lower center of gravity, etc (not just from Rob, either) yet wood planes perform very well without any of these attributes
Rob Lee Desirable total mass used is also dependent on blade width - and intended effective cut angle...
Chris Schwarz Rob: The sole is so beefy that it feels different to my hands that are used to the thinner sole.
Wes "Flummoxes" is bad, right/
Paul_Kierstead Perhaps "wooden planes" would be more appropiate; they are all wood planes :)
Ellis Wes: It's kinda like befuddles. :-)
Chris Schwarz Wes: And it's me, not the tool that is befuddled.
Rob Lee Paul - it's not just the planes - it's the methods of work - and the materials worked....
Rob Lee .... today, we work much more difficult and gnarly woods...
Ellis Rob: So it is all relative, right? To scale up performance, you need to scale up all the variables.
Paul_Kierstead Yes, exactly. So a BU plane might just be a different method of work, or different application
Chris Schwarz Paul: You have a good point. I can't edge joint a toothpick with a wooden jointer.
Paul_Kierstead I don't buy this 'gnarly' arguement. Well, I sort of do, but I think a lot of wood with this super-grain is kind of garish
Paul_Kierstead ...so maybe it is about aesthetics. I like subtle grain
Chris Schwarz Paul: I think some would argue that the run-of-the-mill stuff (no pun intended) is more difficult today.
Rob Lee ... old growth material was, by and large, much more homogeneous....you didn't have to power through as much "character"....:)
Paul_Kierstead So I don't worry about QS burrs....
Paul_Kierstead er, n/m that
Joanne Can you not work on the same woods with a metal or wood plane?
Rob Lee Hi Joanne - absolutely.... we all wear different shoes, don't we?
Rob Lee Tools are all about what fits your hands - and how well you can wield them....
Chris Schwarz Rob: And let's not foget that the first metal planes were BU.
Chris Schwarz With a low center of gravity etc.
Rob Lee Same goes for infills (low COG that is....)
Rob Lee Just as you want to push in-line with a chisel.... doesn't it make sense intuitively to do the same with a plane???
Ellis Rob: What about effective cutting angle? Do different ones work better for different materials?
Rob Lee Ellis - absolutely....
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Good question.
Chris Schwarz Early texts say that low-angles are for harder woods (George Ellis)
Chris Schwarz That seems backwards to us now.
Ellis Chris: Right.
Rob Lee You often hear people say that taking a thinner cut and/or reducing the mouth is the cure....
Wes With regards to physics, would there be any merit to a metal bodied plane designed to be pulled rather than pushed?
Rob Lee ... I'd submit that both of those are treating the symptom....
Chris Schwarz Rob: But are you saying that....
Chris Schwarz Wes: I pull my metal planes all the time.
Chris Schwarz Rob: And the cure is.... wait for it...
Ellis June :-)
Paul_Kierstead A sander?
Rob Lee Both will cause wood failure faster/sooner( reducing tearout)....the cure.... angle...
Chris Schwarz Paul: Ha!
Rob Lee Ellis: haha
Chico... OK Rob... Here is the question for you!
Rob Lee Shoot...
Chris Schwarz Rob: Ab-so-lutely. Angle.
Rob Lee The others still help though.....!
Chico... What LV is going to bring NEW things out in '06?
Chris Schwarz Wes: BTW, I pull my bench planes toward me while working the tops of doors and drawers, bracing the work against my torso.
Chico... So, I am asking for a "teaser"...;-)
Rob Lee Wellll.....mostly tools...but some books too.....and a store (not in Victoria)
Wes Chris: What about when flattening a panel?
Paul_Kierstead Rob: More DVD's.
Rob Lee Chico - Think 289, but with improvements, and handed....
Chico... Tools ...books... That was too specific Rob! I'm overloaded with info now! ;-)
Chris Schwarz Wes: Not so much when flattening a panel (jack plane work) but smoothing? You bet.
Chris Schwarz Paul: Perhaps they first need a hatchet!
Chico... Can you be little more vague please Rob?
Chris Schwarz I could use a good hatchet.
Paul_Kierstead lol. seriously, though, DVD's are a great help. It is hard to see things live now-a-days
Rob Lee Chico - all kinds of cool things coming.... whacha want first??
Paul_Kierstead ...and seeing adds so-o-o-o much
crackerjack Rob do you ever do public appearances at shows in the US?
Chris Schwarz Paul: I actually find it hard to digest DVDs. Maybe it's me. Word nerd.
Rob Lee Was telling Chris about a cool saw design.... but we'd be pilloried if we ever made it...
Chris Schwarz Rob: Ah the saw. I've been pondering it all day.
Ellis Chris: It's all in the editing
Wes Rob: OK, "pilloried"?
Chris Schwarz Ellis: I don't doubt it. Most movies sure are.
Paul_Kierstead Chris: Well, for raw info, of course printed is better. But for more basic things; like say how to hold a skew for turning, or the weight shfit for planing, a book doesn't get close to one minute of video, IMO
Rob Lee Crackerjack: I'm trying to that more.... but we do a lot of shows... 13 in the Jan. 15 -- Feb. 15 period alone!!!
Chris Schwarz Paul: I just have a different digestion rate I think for video vs. words. I like to stare at things.
Ellis Rob: What's the saw you're coming out with?
TiO Rob, you've made the tenon cutters, and shaving horse plans. Great for chair makers. How about spoon bits, reamers, travishers, etc?
Rob Lee Hi Ellis: not yet....just fiddling around.... saws aren't a great mystery - what one really sells is set and sharpen....
Rob Lee I like Mike W's stuff!
Paul_Kierstead The basics, like chopping a mortise, are surprising subtle. A book is a good guide to when to use it, how big it is, etc. But to actually chop one, seeing is huge. Once you get advanced, it is easy to forget how subtle basics like sawing and chopping are
Chris Schwarz Rob: And ergonomics!
Paul_Kierstead Which is why Arts & Mysteries was so good
Chris Schwarz Paul: I hope it still is good!
Paul_Kierstead :). It is.
Wes I second what Paul said.
Rob Lee Hi Tio - granted. Spoon bits coming, large pointers coming, reamers in process, convex shave coming, set of chair devils - very soon, chair scraper too, and kits....
Joanne Rob--a store? In the US, perhaps? (Oh please, oh please?! In PA?!)
Chris Schwarz Chico: There's your answer.
Chico... Yes Rob, Mike's stuff looks great. If they are cutting more than half as good as they look... you've got a winner!
Paul_Kierstead And another factory visit for the Ottawa Woodworkers Association :)
Chris Schwarz Rob: Can we chat chipbreakers for a moment?
Wes Rob: How about a date on the 289?
TiO Paul, I think they had a rust problem with all of the drooling after the last OWA visit
Chris Schwarz I hate them. There. I'm out.
Rob Lee Hi Joanne - no plans just yet... we have some other challenges to handle first. Our stores have a significantly different format than what you see in the US.... and I'm not convinced we can make it work as well.....
Chico... Yep i see Chris... though still waiting for the chisels and chisel holders' "chapter". ;-)
Rob Lee Chris - this'll be quick....!! Shoot!
Rob Lee Me too.
Chris Schwarz Joanne: All the stores that are like Lee Valley are closing in the U.S. They are very different. Different good.
Paul_Kierstead My biggest compaint about the LV 4.5 I have ... The chipbreaker is too large, and it can clog up in the very small space and is painful to clear.
Chris Schwarz Rob: Why do chipbreakers/cap irons exist?
Rob Lee Paul - ping me off-line about the tour - be glad to set it up.....
Chris Schwarz Paul: All breakers are like that. Even the best ones.
Rob Lee Chris - they're a vestigal tail.....
William_OTC Paul, you need a bevel-up, adjustable-mouth smoother. Clearing clogs becomes a non-issue, especially with Rob's mouth stop screw.
Paul_Kierstead Well, for example, at least the space directly in front on more "classic" designs is more spacious.
Chris Schwarz Rob: I thought they were also an ideal way to incorporate blade adjustment into the mechanism and assembly.
Rob Lee ... necessary to compensate for thin blades, and bad fit... but breaking chips?? Deflecting maybe.... the correct angle breaks 'em.... just change your effect cut angle :)
Chris Schwarz Rob: Otherwise you need some kind of movable plate ala #164. No?
Rob Lee Ooooh Shelton?
Chico... That mouth stop screw is I think a "breakthorough"! I am not kidding! Thx for that Rob.
Chris Schwarz Rob: I think that card scrapers prove your point. I've never had a card scraper with a breaker.
Ellis Rob: How close would a chipbreaker have to be to the edge to exert a chip breaking influence?
Rob Lee ...Chris - or a chisel...! no chip breakers there....
Chris Schwarz Rob: Indeed. I actually scrape with chisels, too. No breaker on either side!
Rob Lee Ellis - if the wood fails at the blade edge, the chip is broken already.....
Paul_Kierstead There was a long involved discussion on the board about this recently...
Chris Schwarz Paul: I will say this about the cap iron/breaker... it does help shaving ejection.
Darren29 Rob: What is your latest woodworking project?
Chico... I do scrape with chisels as well as jointer blades! They do wonders!!!!!!
Rob Lee Hi Darren - shelves in the gazebo....
Chico... Last one directed to Chris BTW.
Chris Schwarz Chico: Do you mean jointer plane blades or power jointer blades?
Chico... Yes Chris, have you tried them?
Rob Lee I really like the carbide Sandvik scraper (OK - ours too...) for really heavy removal....
Chris Schwarz Chico: Never tried big power jointer blades. Burr?
Ellis Rob: Tell us more about the carbide scraper.
Rob Lee Ellis - it's a pull scraper - like a box scraper....easy to pull, and push down at the same time....
Chuck Mr. Lee, I was in your website last night and went into dust collection. I noticed the clear dust collection hose with the spring wire in it, does the metal in the hose help with static buildup ? And why don't you carry any dust hoods?
Rob Lee ... I admit to pulling scraper planes too.... but not the #80....that, I push
Chico... NO burr, nothing. Factory spec. Sharpening. Try it, you'll never touch anything else. They also require no sharpening or burring or anything else. I am referring to the 18% tungsten HSS blades, 6or 8 inch.
Chris Schwarz All: OK, last thing on chipbreakers. I'm going to cut one off right in front of the lever cap on a Bailey-style plane. Will that work? Anyone done that? Dehumped a breaker?
Paul_Kierstead I quite like the LV Cabinet scraper for heavy removal. That thing can hog wood.
Chris Schwarz Chico: I just happen to have a set of those for my PM jointer. I'll try it tomorrow. Thanks!
Ellis Chris, it has to do with distributing the pressure
Rob Lee Hi Chuck - don't believe the embedded wire helps....static is a surface effect, no? What sort of hood are you looking for??
Chris Schwarz Ellis: So if it's a 1/8"-thick Hock blade, it still won't work?
Ellis chris: It's all relative
Chico... Chris, if you really get into using those, a wooden holder helps a great deal for long scraping sessions.
Ellis Pressure radiates by a predictable path.
Rob Lee Chico - ANY holder helps.... prevents burnt thumbs too....
Ellis Vibration is a continuum from zero to unacceptable.
Chuck Well actually I think static can buildup on the outside of PVC hose. The dust hoods I was wondering because I feel I have come up with a improved design for the contractors saws that is metal.
Chris Schwarz Chico: I really have been wanting a less flexible scraper that won't "follow" as much as "lead" if you know what I'm saying.
Tom crackerjack, how is the new bench coming along? You order those wooden screws yet?
Chico... I agree Ellis. Chatter is enemy #1 for scraping (planing as well...of course)
Chris Schwarz Ellis: But we're talking about 1/4" of metal gone. Not much at all. I don't think it would chatter.
crackerjack Still drawing up plans
Rob Lee Hi Chuck: We'd be glad to look at it if you like... email me at rlee@leevalley.com ....
crackerjack I 'll probably start this month
Tom cj, you still plan to use the wooden screws, though, right?
crackerjack Definitely
Chuck Ok Mr Lee
Chico... Well Chris, you ought to try those blades then! It's hard to explain, you'll see what I mean when you try them out.
Paul_Kierstead My list of hand-tools that don't have enough choice currently: Saws, and not just dovetail saws. Chisels, especially those with great handles. Or, unhandled very well made ones. Speciality planes; plough, decorative, etc.
Joanne Chico--with that jointer blade you're using, are you pushing or pulling? And is the bevel up or down?
Tom cj, I'll be interested to see how your bench turns out...take pics along the way
Chris Schwarz Chico: Will do.
Rob Lee Hi Chuck - dad's not on here.... just Rob .....:)
Chuck Ok, ok, I'll call you Rob then
Chuck lol
Chuck Mr Rob lol
crackerjack I will for sure Tom
Rob Lee But my middle name is Charles..... so you could call me Chuck....
Rob Lee (or Mr Chuck....)
Chuck We would confuse everyone or they would think I finally really lost it and was talkin to myself
Ellis Rob: Is there a low limit for the bed angle of a bench plane, beyond which cast iron can't hold up?
Chico... Joanne, movement is ...flat side of the blade is moving forward, bevel is behind. It can be pushed or pulled.
Chuck But then again, Ellis already knows I'm nuts
Rob Lee Ellis - I have a bu plane at 7 degrees.... the problem becomes one of geometry very quickly....
Joanne Thanks, Chico. Sounds interesting. I just sharpened my scraper tonight to start using more.
Rob Lee The lower the slope gets - the more critical bed skew (or lack thereof) becomes....
Chico... NP joanne
Chris Schwarz Rob: Which gets back to why low-angle planes are hard to manufacture...
Rob Lee At 12 degrees - it's a 5-1 ratio....one five units of feed to overcome one unit of skew error....
Chris Schwarz Rob: Is that perhaps why there is so little bedding on smaller LA block planes?
Rob Lee .... if a blade bed is out .001 from side to side, you'll see a .005 difference in the mouth/blade relationship.....
Chris Schwarz Less to fettle or worry about?
Chico... I see.. Never thought about the engineering perspective Rob. I guess you have to since you're manufacturing them... (duh) ;-)
Ellis Rob: So the blade must extend by .005 to make up for .001 bed angle problem...?
Rob Lee Chris - a quick fettle is definitely in order, the lower you go... you need an adjustable mouth, and you then fettle the mouth after estblishing the blade bed...
Ellis Whew.
Rob Lee Ellis - yup....rise and run, on a low slope.... takes a lot of run to correct the rise difference....
Chico... Record's 60-1/2 has hardly any place to rest the blade properly. That must be it Chris.
Chris Schwarz Rob: Hmmm. So you need a tight straight mouth with a lower angle?
Ellis Rob: and is there a lapping method you recommend?
Rob Lee Ellis - nope....
William_OTC There's nothing like a skewed bed to mess up a block plane. That's why I eventually abandoned my Stanley contractor grade LA adj mouth plane and got one from Rob.
Rob Lee ...I think many people overdo it....
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Here's my recommendation for an out of true sole: Send it back.
Rob Lee .... it's a question of where a plane must be flat that's important.... not that the entire sole be a mirror....
Chico... Rob... any new block planes in the horizon????
William_OTC Any skew in the bed makes it impossible to get an even depth of cut and a consistent mouth opening..
Ellis Chris: The ones Ive needed to lap have been the flea market variety.
Paul_Kierstead There are enough block planes in the world (Heresy!). We need a good plough plane
Chris Schwarz Chico: My Record block plane actually had a lever cap that pressed down BEHIND the bed. It never worked well.
Rob Lee .... you could almost drill 1" holes all over a plane sole and have no effect on it's ability to take a consistent full width shaving....
Ellis William: Not to mention that the blade needs to be ground to something other than a right angle.
Chico... I agree Will, That's why I am not really fond of my LN 140. It works well if/when you get it right though.
Rob Lee Chico - yes....but that project is secret....
Chris Schwarz Rob: Was secret....
Ellis Rob: Right, but if the toe and heel are high, you're out of luck.
William_OTC Ellis, that doesn't help. That's what a lateral adjuster is for.
Pam Rob, that was kind of proven for metal soled planes by the corrugation; but holes?
Chico... Wow...secret? That's a surprise! ;-) LOL... <G>
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Perhaps we should drill out the high spots on old planes. like a bandsaw wheel.
Rob Lee Hi Pam - and, as you know...it's not even necessary that front and back be co-planar....
Ellis Chris: Etch them. Get artistic while you're at it. :-)
Rob Lee Chris - high spots are bad news....
Pam Sure, but I wouldn't want to drill holes in the high spots. Among other things, you'd get a lot of crud in there.
William_OTC Ellis, but you could regrind the back face of the mouth block, out of square, but normal to the bed.
Pam And you might get a lot of flexing.
Chico... Yes Chris, Record blocks really suck. Nothing made them worked well 'til I infilled one!
Rob Lee What I'm surprised by is that more people don't scrape their planes flat....
Ellis Chico: That sounds like a good mod.
Chris Schwarz Chico: You have photos? Have you ever seen the ones that John Brown infilled. Old Baileys. Very cool.
Ellis (The editors are all over this one. :-)
Pam Rob, all wooden planes are scraped flat. :)
Rob Lee Lapping is sort of a shotgun approach....almost non-specific, and subject to technique errors.....
Chris Schwarz Pam: Or hollow... no?
Rob Lee Pam...zackly!
Pam Yes, Chris.
Wes Rob: How many scrapes per square inch do you think a plane should be finished out at?
Chico... yes, I'll send you a photo. It's #110, fixed mouth. use it for not so fine work, but works well, especially for chamfering
Rob Lee Wes - just the right amount....and no more....
Pam :)
Paul_Kierstead gorman is a big proponent of scraping
William_OTC Wes, IIRC, Stephen Thomas did his loopy to about 32.
Rob Lee Ok - not sure what you mean, Wes....for appearance???
Wes Rob: No, for performance.
Paul_Kierstead But I can't really understand his instructions for it...
Pam Yes, Wm, Stephen was a big scraping proponent.
Ellis Wes: Is this about friction v surface area?
William_OTC Rob, SMT noted (on first Loopy), that he would have done more if it were for appearance, but 32 was enough for performance.
Pam OK, Wm, I'm stupid, 32 what?
William_OTC Or, at least, would have been more careful of the pattern of the scraping marks.
Chris Schwarz Me stooopid too.
Chico... William.. 32 tpi for adj.? is that what you're talking about?
William_OTC 32 spots per square inch.
Rob Lee Plane soles are going to wear smooth pretty quickly...I'd be tempted (and I didn't say this...) to stone a sole smooth, or use a chromium oxide by hand.....
Chico... I see
Wes Ellis: No, just to what degree should a sole be scraped; how many high spots per square inch is acceptable.
William_OTC That's spots of bluing, when the scraped sole was set on the surface plate.
Pam Wm, what defines a spot of bluing?
Chico... I see better now! ;-0
Ellis Wes/Rob: Is scraping the method of sole finishing for modern planes, or are they surface ground?
William_OTC Those are the places where the sole is a little high, and the bluing that was applied to the granite surface plate transfers to the sole.
Pam Thanks,
Rob Lee Ellis - surface grinding....
David_Barnett With Prussian blue paint, Pam.
Chico... Now all that make sense Will
Chris Schwarz I understand the how but not the why.
Paul_Kierstead But how is the actual scraping part done
Ellis Paul: With hand scrapers.
Chuck Ever use a paint scraper ?
TiO Sounds like we need an article on scraping plane soles
Chris Schwarz Rob: You wanna talk A2?
Paul_Kierstead What sort of hand scapers? Some special ultra hard one? Is there a Hook??
Ellis In production, there are scraping machines such as the ones that surface jointer beds, but I don't know if any production plane soles are trued that way.
Paul_Kierstead See, ppl leave out all this stuff...
William_OTC It is a method of successive approximation, with a scraper. Every time, you scrape off the spots of blue, and then do it again. The scraper is a piece of hard steel, like the end of a file, ground square, that you push. Works a lot like a scraper for wood.
Rob Lee William.... again - it's the locus of the points that are coplanar that is important, not that the sole is completely dead flat.... Think Japanese chisel....as long as the perimeter is coplanar (and touching the wood) it can't help but cut flat....
Rob Lee Chris - Et Tu?
Chris Schwarz Rob: I'd like to hear what you think A2 is ideal for compared to other steels.
Paul_Kierstead Might be a practical method to flatten a jointer
Rob Lee Chris....salting the discussion again! .... OK.... here goes nothing....
Chris Schwarz Sounds zen
Rob Lee .... I like HCS better. There... I said it.
David_Barnett There's a good video on machinist scraping of way, gibs, surface plates, tables, etc., at Tech. Video Rental.
Wes Rob: Because?
William_OTC Of course, Rob. But there are other surfaces that are scraped, by machinists. This method is used by them to insure flat surfaces, in general. It also works for planes, even though less scraping would also work.
Chico... Rob, before or after A2 chat, any intention to bring better quality Japanese chisels as well as variety?
David_Barnett I scrape everything. I have more machinist's scrapers than some people have files.
Rob Lee Wes - I like to sharpen by hand.... and don't like diamond stones....
William_OTC ...if the less scraping were inteligently applied, as you suggest.
Rob Lee ... I'm a weekend warrior....and A2 just doesn't have an upside for me....
Wes Rob: Hand, as in you don't like using sharpening jig?
Chico... Rob, "HCS" is me! Thanks! ;-) I like you too.
Ellis Rob: I like high-carbon steel better too, but for selfish reasons.
Rob Lee Wes - no electrons....
Rob Lee ...no muscle memory either.....
David_Barnett I change my homemade tools too often to bother with A2.
Ellis If you could put a micro edge on it in no time flat, it would be a different story.
Paul_Kierstead mkII is brilliant, BTW
Wes Rob: How often do you find yourself hitting the grinder?
Rob Lee Thanks Paul - it's a very specific machine.... chisel and plane blades....
Rob Lee ... I have the MK1....
Paul_Kierstead Actually, sorry,I meant the holder
Paul_Kierstead I have the Mk1 machine
Rob Lee Ah - I have the MK1 there too.....
Paul_Kierstead Well, the new holder really is much nicer.
Chris Schwarz Rob: Do you use oil or waterstones or something else?
Paul_Kierstead Very pleasant to operate
Chico... Rob, I think Mk-II is little on the fast side w/ 650 rpm IMO, what do you think?
Rob Lee Chris - 800x, 4000x, and chromium oxide....
Chris Schwarz Rob: on a strop?
David_Barnett I like variable speed a lot. I have a RayTech faceter that I use for horizontal honing and lapping, and I find real slow speeds to be very helpful.
Rob Lee Chris - actually....on wood. Use it like a crayon....
Wes Rob: Have you tried the crowning diamond plates (Odate)?
Chico... Stropping is always the last step for me!
Chris Schwarz Rob: I guess what's interesting to me is how sharpening technology is trying to keep up with the new steels. Or is it the other way around?
Rob Lee Wes - no - I use our first version honing guide....I can crown controllably with that....
Chris Schwarz Rob: Shaptons, for example, are brilliant on A2
John_Edwards Hi Chris and Rob
Ellis Chris: FWIW, leather strops are problematic. They tend to dub the edge. Hardwood strops work better for me.
Chris Schwarz John: Hey John!
Rob Lee Chris - to some extent, I think we all overmeasure, overbuy, and overspecify....
Chris Schwarz Ellis: I totally agree. I use MDF.
Ellis Rob: Historically, crowning has been a skilled technique.
John_Edwards Hope Megan has a big storage area !!
Rob Lee ... of course, we'll be glad to sell it all to you - but we'll say we don't think it's good value....
Ellis Chris: MDF and diamond paste are a good match.
Chris Schwarz Rob and Ellis: Some might argue that a dished stone is an excellent crowning accessory. Flatten less. Crown more.
David_Barnett The only time I prefer leather strops is when I actually want to dub, or more exactly, round the edge just above the arris.
Wes Chris: What are your crowning habits?
Ellis Chris: What a fortunate excuse.
William_OTC Diamond paste might be an even better match with acrylic or cast iron.
Rob Lee Chris.... there are many paths to the same destination!!
Chris Schwarz Wes: Generally, the Eclipse jig and finger pressure. Or my old black Arkansas that I picked up at a hillbilly gun show.
Chris Schwarz I can say that because I'm a hillbilly, technically.
David_Barnett As long as you're not spinning that acrylic at higher RPMs, Wm. That stuff gets mighty hot.
Chico... LOL.... "hillbilly gun show" ...LOL!
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Actually, most of the old stones I see are dished. And it has made me wonder.
William_OTC No, David. I use it flat, with the Veritas MKII
David_Barnett Ah, right. That works.
Ellis Chris: They just didn't know, or care.
Rob Lee Chris - they were busy making a living....ask Adam!
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Or they knew and cared. Just a thought, really. I think we over flatten.
Pam Yeah, Chris, it sure does. Was it a good thing when the stone was old enough to develop a dish?
David_Barnett Heh, you can grind flats on dished or warped laps, believe me.
Ellis Chris: Or they knew what they wanted and could produce it regardless of how dished their stones were.
David_Barnett You often use your hearing to get it right.
Rob Lee Good technique in anything can overcome a lot....
Chris Schwarz Pam: The dished one I have is very nice for a sweet crown. Just a few thou. And it's hard. Hasn't changed shape much in a decade.
John_Edwards Chris you`ll have to show mw that one
William_OTC Toshio showed me a trick with his diamond crowning plane: you want less crown, you just skew the blade.
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Another thought: I find it hard "not" to get a crown when i work without a jig.
Pam Cool, Chris.
Rob Lee Chris - that's typical....
Ellis Wm: Toshio has a lot up his sleeve. :-)
John_Edwards Chris, do you have Rob s new hand sharpening jig? The Mark II at the shop ?
Chris Schwarz Rob: And usually desirable!
Rob Lee Toshio has the T-shirt....
Chris Schwarz John: Yes. It's *very* nice. Nothing squares a chaisel better.
Chris Schwarz Or a chisel.
Ellis Chris: I agree about the crown, and again, to me it is all about hand skill and being in tune with your task.
John_Edwards GOOD I`ll be using it. Thanks Rob for a super product
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Let me also say that there is genius in Toshio's plate.
Rob Lee Hi John.... nothing that six figures worth of tooling won't do...
Ellis Chris: I learned long ago not to underestimate Toshio.
Rob Lee ... that was our most complex tooling ever.... seven sliding sections in the mold....
John_Edwards You WILL get your money back on that one
Chris Schwarz Ellis: What I like about it is it shows anyone -- anyone -- what a crown should be. No matter if it's there first time out of the gate. That is worth a lot in my book.
Ellis Rob: I can say I was there to see it in the design phase. It seems like a very successful launch.
William_OTC My preference is to start with flat (flat I know, its always the same), and then use pressure on th honing jig to add the amount of crown I want for the tool and the application.
Rob Lee Chris - what does Tosio say about appropriate crown for bed angle????
John_Edwards Coming in late here Chris. Is this the "automatic" crowning plate that Joel sells ?
Rob Lee ...after all, it changes...!
Chris Schwarz Rob: That is a very good point. I need to ask him. I think it's different for the bevel-up planes.
Chris Schwarz John: Yes.
Ellis Rob: I think Toshio relates mostly to 45 degree bed angles
Chris Schwarz Rob: I ran into the issue when i used the crowning plate on your new jointer. Everything went haywire at first until i figured it out.
Rob Lee Ellis - that makes sense...
wendell Chris, is the crown more or less for a BU plane?
John_Edwards Will we have a crowning plate next week to try ?
Rob Lee Chris.... ya always gotta figure in the geometry... threw us too...
Chico... crowning BU blade? Is that a good idea Chris?
Ellis June :-)
Chris Schwarz John: Yes.
John_Edwards GREAT
Chris Schwarz Rob: As I recall, the crown was too much for the BU plane.
Rob Lee Ellis - who's June??? I don't see her logged in....:-)
Ellis Chris:That would stand to reason for me.
Ellis She and her friends April and May are coming soon :-)
Rob Lee I think Chris is twins....
Chris Schwarz Chico: I do crown BU planes. Just differently.
Rob Lee ... remember the multiple Chris issue?
Chico... Do I wanna know Chris?
Chris Schwarz Chris: The photo of me as an 8-year-old... my clone.
John_Edwards Chris did you know that the crowning plate guy is the same as the one working for Michelle ?
Chico... ...I mean how "different"? ;-)
Ellis Chris/Rob: What is the recommended camber for different plane irons?
Rob Lee Chico - you need a comma there!
David_Barnett Gotta go. Thanks for coming, Rob. Great chat, Ellis. 'night, all!
Rob Lee Cheers David!
Chico... Ok Mr. Editor, my mistake!
Chris Schwarz Ellis: I like a few thou for smoothers at most.
Ellis Yeah, me too
Chris Schwarz Ellis: And more for jointers... 8 thou, 10 thou.
Chris Schwarz Ellis: And an 8" radius on a jack.
Rob Lee Chris - a radius, or a relieved edge?
Rob Lee ...i before e....except after c....
Chris Schwarz Rob: I draw an 8" radius circle on a piece of paper. Paste it on my iron. Grind to that edge.,
Chris Schwarz That's the hogging plane.
Rob Lee A demo is in order...
William_OTC Rob, any way to get a tote blank for the BU smoother in wider stock than what you supply standard? The standard handle I find uncomfortable, both because the angle seems less than optimum, but mostly because it feels too narrow and too sharp across the palm of the hand. So far, it's kept me from buying one.
Chris Schwarz Rob: My BU jack (a sweetie) is straight. A shooter par excellence.
Rob Lee Can you set that up John??
Chico... Chris..seriously, how do you crown BU blade/plane? is it worth the challenge?
Rob Lee William - we're looking at that...
Ellis Chris: Yeung Chan sharpens all his blades dead straight across, except for a tiny swipe at the corner. He says it is a matter of skillful setting and use to get a dead flat surface.
Rob Lee Chris... now you just need someone to make a kick butt shooting board.....
Chris Schwarz Chico: Sorry I wasn't trying to duck. Finger pressure on the corners in a side-clamp jig. Not as much pressure as on the bevel-down planes, though.
William_OTC Thanks, Rob. Keep me informed. BTW, there are lots of tool handles I find too narrow where they rest in the palm of the hand, not just yours.
Chris Schwarz Ellis: I think Yeung Chan could do any task with any tool. He's brilliant. I am not. My stuff is not made up, though. It's from the old books...
Chris Schwarz Rob: I think I was just drive-by-teased. Shooting board....
Rob Lee William - it's a design priciple for use to (now) provide as much ability for users to modify handles at will... did it on the shaves, and the router plane... you'll a lot more of that....
Rob Lee ... the main challenge is backwards compatibility.
Ellis Chris: It is fitting to have crowned edges, for all reasons. Yeung is a bit of an elitist about it (I say that in a good way) in that he approaches the limits of precision.
Chico... Thx. Chris.
Chris Schwarz Ellis: Like I said, he's super-human. (in a good way).
Pam What planes does Yeung use mostly?
William_OTC Of course, compatibility is always a problem. But a bigger problem, I think you will find, is guys who will start with a blank, and not know that they don't know what they want, and then mess it up, and have to start over.
Ellis Rob: I wonder, though, how many users can or will take advantage of customizable handles?
Chris Schwarz Pam: Ones he's made. Unique designs.
Pam Are they more western or eastern, Chris?
Ellis Eastern, but also some bodacious western-style planes.
Chris Schwarz As beautiful as his work. More Eastern, but with Western flourishes.
Chris Schwarz They're quite narrow as I recall.
Chico... William, virtue is knowing how much you don't know. if takes staring over... so be it! ;-)
Rob Lee William - we're making a pattern book... and blanks...and we're gonna convince you to go at all you handles. Carvers do it, turners do it.....
Pam On the Japanese blades it's much easier to slightly relieve an edge, given the edges drop off drastically normally.
John_Edwards Ellis, a few that I know will do it as part of the package.
Ellis Rob: I will be interested to see that one!
Rob Lee ...cabinetmakers even keep the boxes....(yup - we're gonna re-do those too...)
Pam That's so cool, Rob.
Rob Lee Ellis - there are no sacred cows...
Ellis Rob: Mmm, dinner!
Pam Rob rules! :)
Rob Lee My typing is getting worse and worse....
Chris Schwarz I actually think we should wind it down here.
Rob Lee Yes Pam - we'll do rules....:-)
Wes Thanks all!
Chris Schwarz Gotts to work tomorrow. And the boss....
Ellis Okay, well we can certainly call it a night. You have been most gracious to hang out with us this long.
Chris Schwarz Agreed.
Ellis My boss is already in dreamland
Pam Boxwood rules?
Ellis Thanks to you Chris and Rob for the excellent chat
Rob Lee Hey GWB made us all start late.... Thanks for an entertaining evening!
Pam Yeah, I had to yell "liar" at the TV for 30 minutes.
Chico... Had a great time you guys... thanks...
Chris Schwarz Thanks all.
Alan_B Thanks to all - interesting nite
Chico... Good nite!
Ellis Nice to see you Chico. Goodnight all!
William_OTC Great chat, all. Thanks for the insights.