CHATROOM |
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EDITED CHAT LOG | |
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a Special Guest Chat with ROBIN LEE with Guest Host Chris Schwarz Tuesday, January 31, 2006 9:30 pm EST |
| Ellis | It is our pleasure tonight to have a special guest, Rob Lee, and a special guest host, Chris Schwarz, for a chat that I'm sure will be enlightening. I know that hand tools will be a recurrent theme. Chris, it's all yours. |
| Rob Lee | Uh oh |
| Chris Schwarz | Thanks Ellis. |
| Ellis | Spotlight |
| Chris Schwarz | First, an administrative note: When you are asking or answering a question, would you please begin your statement with the name of the person you are addressing? For example: "Chris: Get a haircut, you hippie." Thanks, and let's get on with it. |
| Chris Schwarz | So....Hand planes: bevel up vs. bevel down. |
| Chris Schwarz | Stanley's bevel-up bench planes weren't very successful, so why are bevel-up bench planes so popular now? What has changed here? Woodworking? Manufacturing? Marketing? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - there are a number of reasons why a configuration works (or doesn't) at a given time.... Stanley had the wrong material, and the wrong context.... |
| Chris Schwarz | So they had a 7" bevel-up plane (a block plane) but once you get to 9" or 10" or 14".... |
| Chris Schwarz | I mean. It's weird. Stanley had a bazillion block planes. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - it's not the length of the plane....it's the use... |
| Chris Schwarz | You mean butcher blocks? |
| Rob Lee | Stanley focussed on low-angle applications -- not a low-angle platform... |
| Rob Lee | Butcher blocks, shooting etc... |
| Chris Schwarz | I guess I've always been surprised that more users didn't grab the bevel-up config. |
| Rob Lee | What we're focussing on the mechanics of wood failure. |
| Ellis | Isn't the variability of the effective cutting angle - including angles less than 45 degrees -- the major asset? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - there are significant challenges to making a bevel up plane, with a very low bed angle.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: But not in a small configuration? |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - absolutely... it's all about the wood. (Great title for an article, eh Chris?) |
| Chris Schwarz | Is there a scale issue? |
| Chris Schwarz | When you get to 2" wide or something, things get wiggy? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - not sure what you mean.... |
| Chico... | Perhaps strength (of the plane body) issue???? |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: OK: a 1.5" block plane. They make a lot of them -- low-angle, adjustable mouth. |
| Rob Lee | Chico - a plane is just a holder for a chisel.... |
| Chris Schwarz | But you get to a certain size... and then they make nothing of note. |
| Ellis | Wouldn't all the dimensions be relative, Chris? Not to mention the force needed to use the tool? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - yes.... that's why we'll be adding the vertical tote to our LA Block.....it makes a Bevel-up #3.... a sweet plane.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: June catalog... |
| Chico... | Obviously Rob... though that "holder" has to remain rigid and stay in shape that was originally given. |
| William_OTC | Chris, they successfully marketed nothing of note. They made a few interesting planes. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: And the trick is that it's a "holder" -- very important. |
| Chris Schwarz | William: I of course overstated in an effort to get a goat. Sorry. :-) |
| Rob Lee | Chico - absolutely....that's why the chisel (blade) has to be well restrained... |
| Chico... | Chris, Rob... you guys are losing me.. what else do you mean by "holder" other than its obvious purpose? |
| Chico... | Ok, Rob just said that we're in the same page. |
| William_OTC | It is more than a holder. There is also the steel sole in front of the edge, to control tearout. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: Sorry. Not meaning to be obtuse. Just that it's harder for a plane to hold a blade pitched at a low-angle. |
| Rob Lee | One of the interesting things about a LA platform - is forces are exerted more in-line with the axis of the blade.... the more vertical the blade gets, the more the wood tries to "strum" the blade tip.... |
| Chico... | Yes Chris I agree absolutely, that's what I was saying too. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Rut, row, BUvBD |
| Ellis | There's a very interesting point, Rob. |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I think the real differences are not always discussed as much. |
| Chico... | So Rob, sides of the BU planes are hefty...they are so for strength issues, right? |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: The weight is distributed differently. |
| Rob Lee | Two of the most useful things retained from Physics.... F=MA, and ya can't push a rope..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: The controls are placed differently. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Chris: yes, I would agree. However, *I* suspect that the differences are ... overemphasised for most applications |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: And the rear tote has a decided differentness to it as a result. |
| Rob Lee | Chico - a lot of our bevel-up designs take into account the forces exerted on the blade.... |
| Rob Lee | ...having more mass lower is a good thing... |
| Rob Lee | ...on the BUS - the centre of gravity is under 1/2" ..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Generally I agree. It's just different. Not a negative. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: The only place where it flummoxes me is in edge jointing. |
| Paul_Kierstead | I think the wood plane vs metal is not analyzed enough. We often hear about things like increased mass, lower center of gravity, etc (not just from Rob, either) yet wood planes perform very well without any of these attributes |
| Rob Lee | Desirable total mass used is also dependent on blade width - and intended effective cut angle... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: The sole is so beefy that it feels different to my hands that are used to the thinner sole. |
| Wes | "Flummoxes" is bad, right/ |
| Paul_Kierstead | Perhaps "wooden planes" would be more appropiate; they are all wood planes :) |
| Ellis | Wes: It's kinda like befuddles. :-) |
| Chris Schwarz | Wes: And it's me, not the tool that is befuddled. |
| Rob Lee | Paul - it's not just the planes - it's the methods of work - and the materials worked.... |
| Rob Lee | .... today, we work much more difficult and gnarly woods... |
| Ellis | Rob: So it is all relative, right? To scale up performance, you need to scale up all the variables. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Yes, exactly. So a BU plane might just be a different method of work, or different application |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: You have a good point. I can't edge joint a toothpick with a wooden jointer. |
| Paul_Kierstead | I don't buy this 'gnarly' arguement. Well, I sort of do, but I think a lot of wood with this super-grain is kind of garish |
| Paul_Kierstead | ...so maybe it is about aesthetics. I like subtle grain |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I think some would argue that the run-of-the-mill stuff (no pun intended) is more difficult today. |
| Rob Lee | ... old growth material was, by and large, much more homogeneous....you didn't have to power through as much "character"....:) |
| Paul_Kierstead | So I don't worry about QS burrs.... |
| Paul_Kierstead | er, n/m that |
| Joanne | Can you not work on the same woods with a metal or wood plane? |
| Rob Lee | Hi Joanne - absolutely.... we all wear different shoes, don't we? |
| Rob Lee | Tools are all about what fits your hands - and how well you can wield them.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: And let's not foget that the first metal planes were BU. |
| Chris Schwarz | With a low center of gravity etc. |
| Rob Lee | Same goes for infills (low COG that is....) |
| Rob Lee | Just as you want to push in-line with a chisel.... doesn't it make sense intuitively to do the same with a plane??? |
| Ellis | Rob: What about effective cutting angle? Do different ones work better for different materials? |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - absolutely.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Good question. |
| Chris Schwarz | Early texts say that low-angles are for harder woods (George Ellis) |
| Chris Schwarz | That seems backwards to us now. |
| Ellis | Chris: Right. |
| Rob Lee | You often hear people say that taking a thinner cut and/or reducing the mouth is the cure.... |
| Wes | With regards to physics, would there be any merit to a metal bodied plane designed to be pulled rather than pushed? |
| Rob Lee | ... I'd submit that both of those are treating the symptom.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: But are you saying that.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Wes: I pull my metal planes all the time. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: And the cure is.... wait for it... |
| Ellis | June :-) |
| Paul_Kierstead | A sander? |
| Rob Lee | Both will cause wood failure faster/sooner( reducing tearout)....the cure.... angle... |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: Ha! |
| Rob Lee | Ellis: haha |
| Chico... | OK Rob... Here is the question for you! |
| Rob Lee | Shoot... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Ab-so-lutely. Angle. |
| Rob Lee | The others still help though.....! |
| Chico... | What LV is going to bring NEW things out in '06? |
| Chris Schwarz | Wes: BTW, I pull my bench planes toward me while working the tops of doors and drawers, bracing the work against my torso. |
| Chico... | So, I am asking for a "teaser"...;-) |
| Rob Lee | Wellll.....mostly tools...but some books too.....and a store (not in Victoria) |
| Wes | Chris: What about when flattening a panel? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Rob: More DVD's. |
| Rob Lee | Chico - Think 289, but with improvements, and handed.... |
| Chico... | Tools ...books... That was too specific Rob! I'm overloaded with info now! ;-) |
| Chris Schwarz | Wes: Not so much when flattening a panel (jack plane work) but smoothing? You bet. |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: Perhaps they first need a hatchet! |
| Chico... | Can you be little more vague please Rob? |
| Chris Schwarz | I could use a good hatchet. |
| Paul_Kierstead | lol. seriously, though, DVD's are a great help. It is hard to see things live now-a-days |
| Rob Lee | Chico - all kinds of cool things coming.... whacha want first?? |
| Paul_Kierstead | ...and seeing adds so-o-o-o much |
| crackerjack | Rob do you ever do public appearances at shows in the US? |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I actually find it hard to digest DVDs. Maybe it's me. Word nerd. |
| Rob Lee | Was telling Chris about a cool saw design.... but we'd be pilloried if we ever made it... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Ah the saw. I've been pondering it all day. |
| Ellis | Chris: It's all in the editing |
| Wes | Rob: OK, "pilloried"? |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: I don't doubt it. Most movies sure are. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Chris: Well, for raw info, of course printed is better. But for more basic things; like say how to hold a skew for turning, or the weight shfit for planing, a book doesn't get close to one minute of video, IMO |
| Rob Lee | Crackerjack: I'm trying to that more.... but we do a lot of shows... 13 in the Jan. 15 -- Feb. 15 period alone!!! |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I just have a different digestion rate I think for video vs. words. I like to stare at things. |
| Ellis | Rob: What's the saw you're coming out with? |
| TiO | Rob, you've made the tenon cutters, and shaving horse plans. Great for chair makers. How about spoon bits, reamers, travishers, etc? |
| Rob Lee | Hi Ellis: not yet....just fiddling around.... saws aren't a great mystery - what one really sells is set and sharpen.... |
| Rob Lee | I like Mike W's stuff! |
| Paul_Kierstead | The basics, like chopping a mortise, are surprising subtle. A book is a good guide to when to use it, how big it is, etc. But to actually chop one, seeing is huge. Once you get advanced, it is easy to forget how subtle basics like sawing and chopping are |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: And ergonomics! |
| Paul_Kierstead | Which is why Arts & Mysteries was so good |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I hope it still is good! |
| Paul_Kierstead | :). It is. |
| Wes | I second what Paul said. |
| Rob Lee | Hi Tio - granted. Spoon bits coming, large pointers coming, reamers in process, convex shave coming, set of chair devils - very soon, chair scraper too, and kits.... |
| Joanne | Rob--a store? In the US, perhaps? (Oh please, oh please?! In PA?!) |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: There's your answer. |
| Chico... | Yes Rob, Mike's stuff looks great. If they are cutting more than half as good as they look... you've got a winner! |
| Paul_Kierstead | And another factory visit for the Ottawa Woodworkers Association :) |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Can we chat chipbreakers for a moment? |
| Wes | Rob: How about a date on the 289? |
| TiO | Paul, I think they had a rust problem with all of the drooling after the last OWA visit |
| Chris Schwarz | I hate them. There. I'm out. |
| Rob Lee | Hi Joanne - no plans just yet... we have some other challenges to handle first. Our stores have a significantly different format than what you see in the US.... and I'm not convinced we can make it work as well..... |
| Chico... | Yep i see Chris... though still waiting for the chisels and chisel holders' "chapter". ;-) |
| Rob Lee | Chris - this'll be quick....!! Shoot! |
| Rob Lee | Me too. |
| Chris Schwarz | Joanne: All the stores that are like Lee Valley are closing in the U.S. They are very different. Different good. |
| Paul_Kierstead | My biggest compaint about the LV 4.5 I have ... The chipbreaker is too large, and it can clog up in the very small space and is painful to clear. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Why do chipbreakers/cap irons exist? |
| Rob Lee | Paul - ping me off-line about the tour - be glad to set it up..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: All breakers are like that. Even the best ones. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - they're a vestigal tail..... |
| William_OTC | Paul, you need a bevel-up, adjustable-mouth smoother. Clearing clogs becomes a non-issue, especially with Rob's mouth stop screw. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Well, for example, at least the space directly in front on more "classic" designs is more spacious. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I thought they were also an ideal way to incorporate blade adjustment into the mechanism and assembly. |
| Rob Lee | ... necessary to compensate for thin blades, and bad fit... but breaking chips?? Deflecting maybe.... the correct angle breaks 'em.... just change your effect cut angle :) |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Otherwise you need some kind of movable plate ala #164. No? |
| Rob Lee | Ooooh Shelton? |
| Chico... | That mouth stop screw is I think a "breakthorough"! I am not kidding! Thx for that Rob. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I think that card scrapers prove your point. I've never had a card scraper with a breaker. |
| Ellis | Rob: How close would a chipbreaker have to be to the edge to exert a chip breaking influence? |
| Rob Lee | ...Chris - or a chisel...! no chip breakers there.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Indeed. I actually scrape with chisels, too. No breaker on either side! |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - if the wood fails at the blade edge, the chip is broken already..... |
| Paul_Kierstead | There was a long involved discussion on the board about this recently... |
| Chris Schwarz | Paul: I will say this about the cap iron/breaker... it does help shaving ejection. |
| Darren29 | Rob: What is your latest woodworking project? |
| Chico... | I do scrape with chisels as well as jointer blades! They do wonders!!!!!! |
| Rob Lee | Hi Darren - shelves in the gazebo.... |
| Chico... | Last one directed to Chris BTW. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: Do you mean jointer plane blades or power jointer blades? |
| Chico... | Yes Chris, have you tried them? |
| Rob Lee | I really like the carbide Sandvik scraper (OK - ours too...) for really heavy removal.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: Never tried big power jointer blades. Burr? |
| Ellis | Rob: Tell us more about the carbide scraper. |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - it's a pull scraper - like a box scraper....easy to pull, and push down at the same time.... |
| Chuck | Mr. Lee, I was in your website last night and went into dust collection. I noticed the clear dust collection hose with the spring wire in it, does the metal in the hose help with static buildup ? And why don't you carry any dust hoods? |
| Rob Lee | ... I admit to pulling scraper planes too.... but not the #80....that, I push |
| Chico... | NO burr, nothing. Factory spec. Sharpening. Try it, you'll never touch anything else. They also require no sharpening or burring or anything else. I am referring to the 18% tungsten HSS blades, 6or 8 inch. |
| Chris Schwarz | All: OK, last thing on chipbreakers. I'm going to cut one off right in front of the lever cap on a Bailey-style plane. Will that work? Anyone done that? Dehumped a breaker? |
| Paul_Kierstead | I quite like the LV Cabinet scraper for heavy removal. That thing can hog wood. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: I just happen to have a set of those for my PM jointer. I'll try it tomorrow. Thanks! |
| Ellis | Chris, it has to do with distributing the pressure |
| Rob Lee | Hi Chuck - don't believe the embedded wire helps....static is a surface effect, no? What sort of hood are you looking for?? |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: So if it's a 1/8"-thick Hock blade, it still won't work? |
| Ellis | chris: It's all relative |
| Chico... | Chris, if you really get into using those, a wooden holder helps a great deal for long scraping sessions. |
| Ellis | Pressure radiates by a predictable path. |
| Rob Lee | Chico - ANY holder helps.... prevents burnt thumbs too.... |
| Ellis | Vibration is a continuum from zero to unacceptable. |
| Chuck | Well actually I think static can buildup on the outside of PVC hose. The dust hoods I was wondering because I feel I have come up with a improved design for the contractors saws that is metal. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: I really have been wanting a less flexible scraper that won't "follow" as much as "lead" if you know what I'm saying. |
| Tom | crackerjack, how is the new bench coming along? You order those wooden screws yet? |
| Chico... | I agree Ellis. Chatter is enemy #1 for scraping (planing as well...of course) |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: But we're talking about 1/4" of metal gone. Not much at all. I don't think it would chatter. |
| crackerjack | Still drawing up plans |
| Rob Lee | Hi Chuck: We'd be glad to look at it if you like... email me at rlee@leevalley.com .... |
| crackerjack | I 'll probably start this month |
| Tom | cj, you still plan to use the wooden screws, though, right? |
| crackerjack | Definitely |
| Chuck | Ok Mr Lee |
| Chico... | Well Chris, you ought to try those blades then! It's hard to explain, you'll see what I mean when you try them out. |
| Paul_Kierstead | My list of hand-tools that don't have enough choice currently: Saws, and not just dovetail saws. Chisels, especially those with great handles. Or, unhandled very well made ones. Speciality planes; plough, decorative, etc. |
| Joanne | Chico--with that jointer blade you're using, are you pushing or pulling? And is the bevel up or down? |
| Tom | cj, I'll be interested to see how your bench turns out...take pics along the way |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: Will do. |
| Rob Lee | Hi Chuck - dad's not on here.... just Rob .....:) |
| Chuck | Ok, ok, I'll call you Rob then |
| Chuck | lol |
| Chuck | Mr Rob lol |
| crackerjack | I will for sure Tom |
| Rob Lee | But my middle name is Charles..... so you could call me Chuck.... |
| Rob Lee | (or Mr Chuck....) |
| Chuck | We would confuse everyone or they would think I finally really lost it and was talkin to myself |
| Ellis | Rob: Is there a low limit for the bed angle of a bench plane, beyond which cast iron can't hold up? |
| Chico... | Joanne, movement is ...flat side of the blade is moving forward, bevel is behind. It can be pushed or pulled. |
| Chuck | But then again, Ellis already knows I'm nuts |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - I have a bu plane at 7 degrees.... the problem becomes one of geometry very quickly.... |
| Joanne | Thanks, Chico. Sounds interesting. I just sharpened my scraper tonight to start using more. |
| Rob Lee | The lower the slope gets - the more critical bed skew (or lack thereof) becomes.... |
| Chico... | NP joanne |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Which gets back to why low-angle planes are hard to manufacture... |
| Rob Lee | At 12 degrees - it's a 5-1 ratio....one five units of feed to overcome one unit of skew error.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Is that perhaps why there is so little bedding on smaller LA block planes? |
| Rob Lee | .... if a blade bed is out .001 from side to side, you'll see a .005 difference in the mouth/blade relationship..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Less to fettle or worry about? |
| Chico... | I see.. Never thought about the engineering perspective Rob. I guess you have to since you're manufacturing them... (duh) ;-) |
| Ellis | Rob: So the blade must extend by .005 to make up for .001 bed angle problem...? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - a quick fettle is definitely in order, the lower you go... you need an adjustable mouth, and you then fettle the mouth after estblishing the blade bed... |
| Ellis | Whew. |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - yup....rise and run, on a low slope.... takes a lot of run to correct the rise difference.... |
| Chico... | Record's 60-1/2 has hardly any place to rest the blade properly. That must be it Chris. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Hmmm. So you need a tight straight mouth with a lower angle? |
| Ellis | Rob: and is there a lapping method you recommend? |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - nope.... |
| William_OTC | There's nothing like a skewed bed to mess up a block plane. That's why I eventually abandoned my Stanley contractor grade LA adj mouth plane and got one from Rob. |
| Rob Lee | ...I think many people overdo it.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Here's my recommendation for an out of true sole: Send it back. |
| Rob Lee | .... it's a question of where a plane must be flat that's important.... not that the entire sole be a mirror.... |
| Chico... | Rob... any new block planes in the horizon???? |
| William_OTC | Any skew in the bed makes it impossible to get an even depth of cut and a consistent mouth opening.. |
| Ellis | Chris: The ones Ive needed to lap have been the flea market variety. |
| Paul_Kierstead | There are enough block planes in the world (Heresy!). We need a good plough plane |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: My Record block plane actually had a lever cap that pressed down BEHIND the bed. It never worked well. |
| Rob Lee | .... you could almost drill 1" holes all over a plane sole and have no effect on it's ability to take a consistent full width shaving.... |
| Ellis | William: Not to mention that the blade needs to be ground to something other than a right angle. |
| Chico... | I agree Will, That's why I am not really fond of my LN 140. It works well if/when you get it right though. |
| Rob Lee | Chico - yes....but that project is secret.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Was secret.... |
| Ellis | Rob: Right, but if the toe and heel are high, you're out of luck. |
| William_OTC | Ellis, that doesn't help. That's what a lateral adjuster is for. |
| Pam | Rob, that was kind of proven for metal soled planes by the corrugation; but holes? |
| Chico... | Wow...secret? That's a surprise! ;-) LOL... <G> |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Perhaps we should drill out the high spots on old planes. like a bandsaw wheel. |
| Rob Lee | Hi Pam - and, as you know...it's not even necessary that front and back be co-planar.... |
| Ellis | Chris: Etch them. Get artistic while you're at it. :-) |
| Rob Lee | Chris - high spots are bad news.... |
| Pam | Sure, but I wouldn't want to drill holes in the high spots. Among other things, you'd get a lot of crud in there. |
| William_OTC | Ellis, but you could regrind the back face of the mouth block, out of square, but normal to the bed. |
| Pam | And you might get a lot of flexing. |
| Chico... | Yes Chris, Record blocks really suck. Nothing made them worked well 'til I infilled one! |
| Rob Lee | What I'm surprised by is that more people don't scrape their planes flat.... |
| Ellis | Chico: That sounds like a good mod. |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: You have photos? Have you ever seen the ones that John Brown infilled. Old Baileys. Very cool. |
| Ellis | (The editors are all over this one. :-) |
| Pam | Rob, all wooden planes are scraped flat. :) |
| Rob Lee | Lapping is sort of a shotgun approach....almost non-specific, and subject to technique errors..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Pam: Or hollow... no? |
| Rob Lee | Pam...zackly! |
| Pam | Yes, Chris. |
| Wes | Rob: How many scrapes per square inch do you think a plane should be finished out at? |
| Chico... | yes, I'll send you a photo. It's #110, fixed mouth. use it for not so fine work, but works well, especially for chamfering |
| Rob Lee | Wes - just the right amount....and no more.... |
| Pam | :) |
| Paul_Kierstead | gorman is a big proponent of scraping |
| William_OTC | Wes, IIRC, Stephen Thomas did his loopy to about 32. |
| Rob Lee | Ok - not sure what you mean, Wes....for appearance??? |
| Wes | Rob: No, for performance. |
| Paul_Kierstead | But I can't really understand his instructions for it... |
| Pam | Yes, Wm, Stephen was a big scraping proponent. |
| Ellis | Wes: Is this about friction v surface area? |
| William_OTC | Rob, SMT noted (on first Loopy), that he would have done more if it were for appearance, but 32 was enough for performance. |
| Pam | OK, Wm, I'm stupid, 32 what? |
| William_OTC | Or, at least, would have been more careful of the pattern of the scraping marks. |
| Chris Schwarz | Me stooopid too. |
| Chico... | William.. 32 tpi for adj.? is that what you're talking about? |
| William_OTC | 32 spots per square inch. |
| Rob Lee | Plane soles are going to wear smooth pretty quickly...I'd be tempted (and I didn't say this...) to stone a sole smooth, or use a chromium oxide by hand..... |
| Chico... | I see |
| Wes | Ellis: No, just to what degree should a sole be scraped; how many high spots per square inch is acceptable. |
| William_OTC | That's spots of bluing, when the scraped sole was set on the surface plate. |
| Pam | Wm, what defines a spot of bluing? |
| Chico... | I see better now! ;-0 |
| Ellis | Wes/Rob: Is scraping the method of sole finishing for modern planes, or are they surface ground? |
| William_OTC | Those are the places where the sole is a little high, and the bluing that was applied to the granite surface plate transfers to the sole. |
| Pam | Thanks, |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - surface grinding.... |
| David_Barnett | With Prussian blue paint, Pam. |
| Chico... | Now all that make sense Will |
| Chris Schwarz | I understand the how but not the why. |
| Paul_Kierstead | But how is the actual scraping part done |
| Ellis | Paul: With hand scrapers. |
| Chuck | Ever use a paint scraper ? |
| TiO | Sounds like we need an article on scraping plane soles |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: You wanna talk A2? |
| Paul_Kierstead | What sort of hand scapers? Some special ultra hard one? Is there a Hook?? |
| Ellis | In production, there are scraping machines such as the ones that surface jointer beds, but I don't know if any production plane soles are trued that way. |
| Paul_Kierstead | See, ppl leave out all this stuff... |
| William_OTC | It is a method of successive approximation, with a scraper. Every time, you scrape off the spots of blue, and then do it again. The scraper is a piece of hard steel, like the end of a file, ground square, that you push. Works a lot like a scraper for wood. |
| Rob Lee | William.... again - it's the locus of the points that are coplanar that is important, not that the sole is completely dead flat.... Think Japanese chisel....as long as the perimeter is coplanar (and touching the wood) it can't help but cut flat.... |
| Rob Lee | Chris - Et Tu? |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I'd like to hear what you think A2 is ideal for compared to other steels. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Might be a practical method to flatten a jointer |
| Rob Lee | Chris....salting the discussion again! .... OK.... here goes nothing.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Sounds zen |
| Rob Lee | .... I like HCS better. There... I said it. |
| David_Barnett | There's a good video on machinist scraping of way, gibs, surface plates, tables, etc., at Tech. Video Rental. |
| Wes | Rob: Because? |
| William_OTC | Of course, Rob. But there are other surfaces that are scraped, by machinists. This method is used by them to insure flat surfaces, in general. It also works for planes, even though less scraping would also work. |
| Chico... | Rob, before or after A2 chat, any intention to bring better quality Japanese chisels as well as variety? |
| David_Barnett | I scrape everything. I have more machinist's scrapers than some people have files. |
| Rob Lee | Wes - I like to sharpen by hand.... and don't like diamond stones.... |
| William_OTC | ...if the less scraping were inteligently applied, as you suggest. |
| Rob Lee | ... I'm a weekend warrior....and A2 just doesn't have an upside for me.... |
| Wes | Rob: Hand, as in you don't like using sharpening jig? |
| Chico... | Rob, "HCS" is me! Thanks! ;-) I like you too. |
| Ellis | Rob: I like high-carbon steel better too, but for selfish reasons. |
| Rob Lee | Wes - no electrons.... |
| Rob Lee | ...no muscle memory either..... |
| David_Barnett | I change my homemade tools too often to bother with A2. |
| Ellis | If you could put a micro edge on it in no time flat, it would be a different story. |
| Paul_Kierstead | mkII is brilliant, BTW |
| Wes | Rob: How often do you find yourself hitting the grinder? |
| Rob Lee | Thanks Paul - it's a very specific machine.... chisel and plane blades.... |
| Rob Lee | ... I have the MK1.... |
| Paul_Kierstead | Actually, sorry,I meant the holder |
| Paul_Kierstead | I have the Mk1 machine |
| Rob Lee | Ah - I have the MK1 there too..... |
| Paul_Kierstead | Well, the new holder really is much nicer. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Do you use oil or waterstones or something else? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Very pleasant to operate |
| Chico... | Rob, I think Mk-II is little on the fast side w/ 650 rpm IMO, what do you think? |
| Rob Lee | Chris - 800x, 4000x, and chromium oxide.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: on a strop? |
| David_Barnett | I like variable speed a lot. I have a RayTech faceter that I use for horizontal honing and lapping, and I find real slow speeds to be very helpful. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - actually....on wood. Use it like a crayon.... |
| Wes | Rob: Have you tried the crowning diamond plates (Odate)? |
| Chico... | Stropping is always the last step for me! |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I guess what's interesting to me is how sharpening technology is trying to keep up with the new steels. Or is it the other way around? |
| Rob Lee | Wes - no - I use our first version honing guide....I can crown controllably with that.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: Shaptons, for example, are brilliant on A2 |
| John_Edwards | Hi Chris and Rob |
| Ellis | Chris: FWIW, leather strops are problematic. They tend to dub the edge. Hardwood strops work better for me. |
| Chris Schwarz | John: Hey John! |
| Rob Lee | Chris - to some extent, I think we all overmeasure, overbuy, and overspecify.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: I totally agree. I use MDF. |
| Ellis | Rob: Historically, crowning has been a skilled technique. |
| John_Edwards | Hope Megan has a big storage area !! |
| Rob Lee | ... of course, we'll be glad to sell it all to you - but we'll say we don't think it's good value.... |
| Ellis | Chris: MDF and diamond paste are a good match. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob and Ellis: Some might argue that a dished stone is an excellent crowning accessory. Flatten less. Crown more. |
| David_Barnett | The only time I prefer leather strops is when I actually want to dub, or more exactly, round the edge just above the arris. |
| Wes | Chris: What are your crowning habits? |
| Ellis | Chris: What a fortunate excuse. |
| William_OTC | Diamond paste might be an even better match with acrylic or cast iron. |
| Rob Lee | Chris.... there are many paths to the same destination!! |
| Chris Schwarz | Wes: Generally, the Eclipse jig and finger pressure. Or my old black Arkansas that I picked up at a hillbilly gun show. |
| Chris Schwarz | I can say that because I'm a hillbilly, technically. |
| David_Barnett | As long as you're not spinning that acrylic at higher RPMs, Wm. That stuff gets mighty hot. |
| Chico... | LOL.... "hillbilly gun show" ...LOL! |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Actually, most of the old stones I see are dished. And it has made me wonder. |
| William_OTC | No, David. I use it flat, with the Veritas MKII |
| David_Barnett | Ah, right. That works. |
| Ellis | Chris: They just didn't know, or care. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - they were busy making a living....ask Adam! |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Or they knew and cared. Just a thought, really. I think we over flatten. |
| Pam | Yeah, Chris, it sure does. Was it a good thing when the stone was old enough to develop a dish? |
| David_Barnett | Heh, you can grind flats on dished or warped laps, believe me. |
| Ellis | Chris: Or they knew what they wanted and could produce it regardless of how dished their stones were. |
| David_Barnett | You often use your hearing to get it right. |
| Rob Lee | Good technique in anything can overcome a lot.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Pam: The dished one I have is very nice for a sweet crown. Just a few thou. And it's hard. Hasn't changed shape much in a decade. |
| John_Edwards | Chris you`ll have to show mw that one |
| William_OTC | Toshio showed me a trick with his diamond crowning plane: you want less crown, you just skew the blade. |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Another thought: I find it hard "not" to get a crown when i work without a jig. |
| Pam | Cool, Chris. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - that's typical.... |
| Ellis | Wm: Toshio has a lot up his sleeve. :-) |
| John_Edwards | Chris, do you have Rob s new hand sharpening jig? The Mark II at the shop ? |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: And usually desirable! |
| Rob Lee | Toshio has the T-shirt.... |
| Chris Schwarz | John: Yes. It's *very* nice. Nothing squares a chaisel better. |
| Chris Schwarz | Or a chisel. |
| Ellis | Chris: I agree about the crown, and again, to me it is all about hand skill and being in tune with your task. |
| John_Edwards | GOOD I`ll be using it. Thanks Rob for a super product |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Let me also say that there is genius in Toshio's plate. |
| Rob Lee | Hi John.... nothing that six figures worth of tooling won't do... |
| Ellis | Chris: I learned long ago not to underestimate Toshio. |
| Rob Lee | ... that was our most complex tooling ever.... seven sliding sections in the mold.... |
| John_Edwards | You WILL get your money back on that one |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: What I like about it is it shows anyone -- anyone -- what a crown should be. No matter if it's there first time out of the gate. That is worth a lot in my book. |
| Ellis | Rob: I can say I was there to see it in the design phase. It seems like a very successful launch. |
| William_OTC | My preference is to start with flat (flat I know, its always the same), and then use pressure on th honing jig to add the amount of crown I want for the tool and the application. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - what does Tosio say about appropriate crown for bed angle???? |
| John_Edwards | Coming in late here Chris. Is this the "automatic" crowning plate that Joel sells ? |
| Rob Lee | ...after all, it changes...! |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: That is a very good point. I need to ask him. I think it's different for the bevel-up planes. |
| Chris Schwarz | John: Yes. |
| Ellis | Rob: I think Toshio relates mostly to 45 degree bed angles |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I ran into the issue when i used the crowning plate on your new jointer. Everything went haywire at first until i figured it out. |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - that makes sense... |
| wendell | Chris, is the crown more or less for a BU plane? |
| John_Edwards | Will we have a crowning plate next week to try ? |
| Rob Lee | Chris.... ya always gotta figure in the geometry... threw us too... |
| Chico... | crowning BU blade? Is that a good idea Chris? |
| Ellis | June :-) |
| Chris Schwarz | John: Yes. |
| John_Edwards | GREAT |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: As I recall, the crown was too much for the BU plane. |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - who's June??? I don't see her logged in....:-) |
| Ellis | Chris:That would stand to reason for me. |
| Ellis | She and her friends April and May are coming soon :-) |
| Rob Lee | I think Chris is twins.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: I do crown BU planes. Just differently. |
| Rob Lee | ... remember the multiple Chris issue? |
| Chico... | Do I wanna know Chris? |
| Chris Schwarz | Chris: The photo of me as an 8-year-old... my clone. |
| John_Edwards | Chris did you know that the crowning plate guy is the same as the one working for Michelle ? |
| Chico... | ...I mean how "different"? ;-) |
| Ellis | Chris/Rob: What is the recommended camber for different plane irons? |
| Rob Lee | Chico - you need a comma there! |
| David_Barnett | Gotta go. Thanks for coming, Rob. Great chat, Ellis. 'night, all! |
| Rob Lee | Cheers David! |
| Chico... | Ok Mr. Editor, my mistake! |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: I like a few thou for smoothers at most. |
| Ellis | Yeah, me too |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: And more for jointers... 8 thou, 10 thou. |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: And an 8" radius on a jack. |
| Rob Lee | Chris - a radius, or a relieved edge? |
| Rob Lee | ...i before e....except after c.... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I draw an 8" radius circle on a piece of paper. Paste it on my iron. Grind to that edge., |
| Chris Schwarz | That's the hogging plane. |
| Rob Lee | A demo is in order... |
| William_OTC | Rob, any way to get a tote blank for the BU smoother in wider stock than what you supply standard? The standard handle I find uncomfortable, both because the angle seems less than optimum, but mostly because it feels too narrow and too sharp across the palm of the hand. So far, it's kept me from buying one. |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: My BU jack (a sweetie) is straight. A shooter par excellence. |
| Rob Lee | Can you set that up John?? |
| Chico... | Chris..seriously, how do you crown BU blade/plane? is it worth the challenge? |
| Rob Lee | William - we're looking at that... |
| Ellis | Chris: Yeung Chan sharpens all his blades dead straight across, except for a tiny swipe at the corner. He says it is a matter of skillful setting and use to get a dead flat surface. |
| Rob Lee | Chris... now you just need someone to make a kick butt shooting board..... |
| Chris Schwarz | Chico: Sorry I wasn't trying to duck. Finger pressure on the corners in a side-clamp jig. Not as much pressure as on the bevel-down planes, though. |
| William_OTC | Thanks, Rob. Keep me informed. BTW, there are lots of tool handles I find too narrow where they rest in the palm of the hand, not just yours. |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: I think Yeung Chan could do any task with any tool. He's brilliant. I am not. My stuff is not made up, though. It's from the old books... |
| Chris Schwarz | Rob: I think I was just drive-by-teased. Shooting board.... |
| Rob Lee | William - it's a design priciple for use to (now) provide as much ability for users to modify handles at will... did it on the shaves, and the router plane... you'll a lot more of that.... |
| Rob Lee | ... the main challenge is backwards compatibility. |
| Ellis | Chris: It is fitting to have crowned edges, for all reasons. Yeung is a bit of an elitist about it (I say that in a good way) in that he approaches the limits of precision. |
| Chico... | Thx. Chris. |
| Chris Schwarz | Ellis: Like I said, he's super-human. (in a good way). |
| Pam | What planes does Yeung use mostly? |
| William_OTC | Of course, compatibility is always a problem. But a bigger problem, I think you will find, is guys who will start with a blank, and not know that they don't know what they want, and then mess it up, and have to start over. |
| Ellis | Rob: I wonder, though, how many users can or will take advantage of customizable handles? |
| Chris Schwarz | Pam: Ones he's made. Unique designs. |
| Pam | Are they more western or eastern, Chris? |
| Ellis | Eastern, but also some bodacious western-style planes. |
| Chris Schwarz | As beautiful as his work. More Eastern, but with Western flourishes. |
| Chris Schwarz | They're quite narrow as I recall. |
| Chico... | William, virtue is knowing how much you don't know. if takes staring over... so be it! ;-) |
| Rob Lee | William - we're making a pattern book... and blanks...and we're gonna convince you to go at all you handles. Carvers do it, turners do it..... |
| Pam | On the Japanese blades it's much easier to slightly relieve an edge, given the edges drop off drastically normally. |
| John_Edwards | Ellis, a few that I know will do it as part of the package. |
| Ellis | Rob: I will be interested to see that one! |
| Rob Lee | ...cabinetmakers even keep the boxes....(yup - we're gonna re-do those too...) |
| Pam | That's so cool, Rob. |
| Rob Lee | Ellis - there are no sacred cows... |
| Ellis | Rob: Mmm, dinner! |
| Pam | Rob rules! :) |
| Rob Lee | My typing is getting worse and worse.... |
| Chris Schwarz | I actually think we should wind it down here. |
| Rob Lee | Yes Pam - we'll do rules....:-) |
| Wes | Thanks all! |
| Chris Schwarz | Gotts to work tomorrow. And the boss.... |
| Ellis | Okay, well we can certainly call it a night. You have been most gracious to hang out with us this long. |
| Chris Schwarz | Agreed. |
| Ellis | My boss is already in dreamland |
| Pam | Boxwood rules? |
| Ellis | Thanks to you Chris and Rob for the excellent chat |
| Rob Lee | Hey GWB made us all start late.... Thanks for an entertaining evening! |
| Pam | Yeah, I had to yell "liar" at the TV for 30 minutes. |
| Chico... | Had a great time you guys... thanks... |
| Chris Schwarz | Thanks all. |
| Alan_B | Thanks to all - interesting nite |
| Chico... | Good nite! |
| Ellis | Nice to see you Chico. Goodnight all! |
| William_OTC | Great chat, all. Thanks for the insights. |