WoodCentral Special Guest Chat JAMES KRENOV November 17, 2004 [EDITED]

Ellis	Rarely do I have the pleasure of introducing such an esteemed guest, but tonight we are delighted to welcome none other than James Krenov to the WoodCentral chatroom. For most of us, Jim needs no introduction. He has certainly been one of the most influential woodworkers of all time. His books and teachings have helped spur a renaissance of craftsmanship in North America and around the world. We’re privileged to have him join us here tonight. Welcome, Jim!
Spence	Good evening
Roger_Myers	A pleasure Mr. Krenov....thanks Ellis
Ellis	My pleasure.
Agee	Thanks for being here Jim!
Ellis	I would like to kick it off with a question for you, Jim: The books you wrote in the 1970s continue to influence woodworkers worldwide, including many of the folks here with us tonight. Have you figured out what resonates so strongly with these woodworkers?
Jim Krenov	The simplest and most direct answer would be that for some people inner enjoyment and self expression are more important than mechanically motivated efficiency and computer design. People want to be able to say about their work, "this is me."
Ellis	Welcome to all you newcomers. Jim Krenov is our guest tonight.
Carole_in_VA	Jim, what's your biggest source of inspiration for your pieces?
Jim Krenov	Most people would say that Krenov starts with the wood. And there is truth in that. But, a functional idea for a piece that is going to be more than decorative can lead to the wood being less important than pleasant and beautiful fulfillment of the function of the piece. So, wood isn't all of it.
rustym	Mr. Krenov, is there a chance you will do another book?
Jim Krenov	Not much chance of another book, unless I write one called the Left-Handed Cabinetmaker, prompted by the arthritis in my right hand!
Carole_in_VA	LOL
Norman	I wouldn't mind, I'm left-handed
Bill_Murphy	LOL
Warren_Muse	Jim, Your style has inspired many. But how do you feel when you see your designs in the work of others?
Jim Krenov	Influence is nobody's personal property. My hope is that woodworkers influenced by certain lines, rhythms and textures will use them in their own way and forget about me.
John_H	Jim I am fairly new to woodworking and want to learn about picking wood for pieces, grain etc. How best to become good at seeing the specialness of one board over another?
Jim Krenov	With respect to choice of wood: Teach yourself to be aware of more than color and pattern. Learn about texture and the working properties of woods. So, your relationship to wood, any wood, will become personal and will relate directly to the kind of work that you want most to do. It is a gradual self-learning. Dryness is the essence. Real dryness. Learn about that.
Spence	Does the arthritis force you to spend less time in the shop?
Dale_L	Sorry to hear about your right hand, James.
Roger_Myers	Mr. Krenov...it's not likely that we will ever forget the distinctive school of design you have inspired...it is a classic that will endure!
Ellis	I agree, Roger.
Agee	Have you done all that you wanted to do? More than you wanted to do or expected as a young man?
Ellis	Okay, let's wait a moment before we inundate our guest... :-)
Ellis	WoodCentral and most of the mainstream print magazines are patronized by people who are avid about learning the craft of woodworking. Not all of them can attend a program like the school you founded at the College of the Redwoods. Is there another way they can learn the skills and sensibilities of your teachings?
Jim Krenov	Definitely yes! The College is inevitably influenced by time and pressures so I don't know wether the intimacy and kind of teaching that helped people see and feel better is still the main idea. There is a difference between instructing and teaching. Starting with a relaxed open-minded approach to tools and wood and other things that matter most to craftsmen, one will inevitably become ones own teacher, make friends, share with them and make one's own way.
Ellis	I had a feeling you would say that. Thanks!
Carole_in_VA	Sounds like a function that WoodCentral serves :-)
Spence	sure does!
Ellis	Yes, Carole, but we teach each other, too.
AndiWolfe	Woodturning has an openness to the craft where turners are willing to share techniques with one another. Do you find furniture-makers similar in their willingness to share with one another?
Jim Krenov	Willingness to share? Definietly not. Ego comes in, and financial gain and reputation. If you can get by all that, then sharing becomes simply being friendly to the stranger at your door and sharing what you know with him or her.
Ellis	You have always talked a lot about our sensitivities and curiosity as a basis for our best work. Can you say more about this? What sorts of things should an ambitious craftsman be sensitive to?
Jim Krenov	We have already touched on much about sensitivity. I can only add that one should not be too easily discouraged or intentionally isolated. Keep up your energy and your curiosity. Get to know yourself better and better.
ddubs	Curiosity! I'm glad to see that you said that.
Gil	Jim, I was at the Fine Furnishings show in Providence, Rhode Island recently. I found both types of people there, egotistical and kind sharing artists.
Roger_Myers	Jim, I find it interesting that some of the most accomplished woodworkers (including yourself) are the most willing to share their knowledge
Norman	Jim, how do you see the craft of woodworking evolving over the next few years?
Jim Krenov	The evolution of woodworking - That is a hard one! I won't be around to see it. Which doesn't make me sad. The emphasis will be on efficiency and gadgets. And when that becomes stifeling there will be some drop-outs like you and me. And, it isn't demeaning to be a drop-out.
Gil	Jim when you say Drop-out, would you view that as a person who is not a "Sell Out" and is just trying to be an artist?
TW	or more of a 'traditionalist'?
Agee	I think you can still be an artist,woodworker or "dropout" and still feed your children.
jerry	...and could you speak more to "dryness"?
Jim Krenov	Dryness: It involves knowing when the wood that you want has been sawn and where it has been stored. Also, you can learn from the first cut that you make in a piece of wood. How does the wood respond. Curve or flat? Dry is dry, whether by a meter or by your hand and common sense. Also, remember this: if you lay a flat piece of wood face down on your bench, the up side will inevitably move a little bit up towards the ceiling even if it is dry, and it will move a lot if it isn't. Conclusion: live with your wood.
Jim Krenov	About this dropout thing. It has nothing to do with a sell out or wanting to be an artist. It is simply a reluctance to join the rat race. As long as it is honest, it is legitimate.
Tex	You have to feed your children whether you produce art or drek. Most produce neither. They make the compromises that are necessary. Faulkner wrote his potboilers as well as his great works.
TW	If I drop out do I have to sell all six of my routers?
Norman	TW, you can keep one for emergencies :)
TW	Norman, whew!
Yeung_Chan	Hello, Jim , Ellis and everyone, good evening. This is my very first time into a "chat room"
Ellis	Welcome, Yeung.
Carole_in_VA	Welcome!
Spence	Welcome Yeung_Chan
RayT	Welcome Yeung, Ellis runs a very friendly place here.
Ellis	Only the friendliest, Ray. :-)
dwight	Yueng Chan, what a beautiful display cabinet that appeared in FWW #161 that you built at the College of the Redwoods. My wish is to do as well.
John_H	Jim, I know you make your own planes. Are there any handtools companies that are making planes, chisels, etc. that you like?
Ellis	Jim, can you briefly describe your design process for us? How important are mockups? What do you learn from them?
Jim Krenov	Mock ups. It would take too long to give a proper answer. I don't design, or maybe I do. I believe I compose. Sometimes from a very minimal idea. Maybe even a request by someone and go step by step. All the time making new guesses, improvising and hoping. If you can't be good, be lucky!
Ellis	That's way too modest, Jim
Carole_in_VA	Mr. Krenov is there any particular stage in the creation of a piece that you enjoy more than any other?
Larry_Clinton	Jim, do you have a favorite wood you like to work with?
Agee	Is it more difficult to leave the rat race once you have three children? Or, from the other side, should you drop out and teach them another way that is closer to the heart and more alive?
Yeung_Chan	I should come to this more, but feel not enough time to do all things, especially making furniture.
Ellis	Yeung, make furniture. Trust me.
rustym	Mr. Chan...Any chance you will be in Texas anytime?
dwight	Yeung_Chan Hope you will visit more often and also post pics.
Spence	Time is a harsh Mistress
TW	Agee, sometimes you have to put the good of your family ahead of your 'dreams'
Roger_Myers	Jim... I've read that you sometimes leave a piece natural...no finish. Can you comment?
TW	I don't know that many people who love their jobs after 20+ years
Ellis	Jim, along those lines, what finishes do you and your students use most and why?
Agee	Yes, I know that, but by sacrificing dreams, sometimes I feel that I may be altering a course that may be beneficial to my children. My youngest has Downs. He will be a great woodworker and musician someday, this I can alread see. So maybe I should go that route now...
ddubs	I think I can answer the finish question. Shellac is the friendliest of finsihes.
Agee	Yes, I am in Pineville now. I hope Mr Krenov makes it back.
RevDoug	Agee, is that Pineville, KY?
TW	Agee, some tough decisions ahead of you...
Roger_Myers	Yeung, what is your opinion on the "no finish"?
Ellis	They got disconnected. Hang on a second...
Dale_L	I think I could listen to Jim's thoughts on life and woodworking all night.
Carole_in_VA	In all its glory, the net is still so very fragile! LOL
craneman54	So you have moved already, or just looking around for a place to live?
Agee	Pineville, LA ...I'm moving there to get off the road every week and spend time with the family.
	........JIM KRENOV HAS ENTERED THE CHATROOM.........
Spence	Welcome back, Jim
Ellis	WB, Jim
dwight	While waiting, get your February 2003 FWW and enjoy Yeung's cabinet.
Agee	No move yet. Family is home in Charlotte while I work down here until we sell the house.I will still be travelling once a month to my favorite city though -- Boston.
Ellis	Where were we, Jim?
RayT	Question about finishing
Carole_in_VA	Ray, you might want to repeat. He was offline when you asked.
RayT	That's it.
Joanne	Carole, why don't you repeat your last question--I thought it was a good one.
Carole_in_VA	Ummm....let me remember, Joanne. LOL
Joanne	Psst! Favorite stage of creation or something.
Ellis	Now I remember...what finishes do you and your students use most?
Jim Krenov	I use less polish (shellac) than I once did, although polish is a classic. There are fine waxes available. There is also a microcrystalline wax which contains no oil that leaves the wood protected but unchanged in color and texture.
Spence	Renaissance wax??
rustym	Mr. Chan....Hope you make it down this way sometime. Would love to see Mr. Krenov come to Texas also.
Yeung_Chan	Rustym, right now I do not have any plan to Texas. Roger, if a piece of furniture (or many other things) is made to use, day by day, with many hands touch, it is better with some kind of finish on it, my opinion.
Roger_Myers	thanks Yeung..
Carole_in_VA	Oh yes, Mr. Krenov, is there any particular stage during the creation of a piece that you enjoy more than any other?
Ellis	Are there rules of thumb for combining colors and textures?
Jim Krenov	Fortunately there are no rules whatsoever! Your own perception of color, texture, and pattern should evolve into rhythms and combinations that reflect you and your judgement.
Ellis	So our work is a reflection of ourselves?
ddubs	Jim, you introduced the idea of personal relationships with tools and materials to a whole generation, an ideal which bears at least a relationship to the hopes of the founders of the Arts & Crafts movement. To what extent was your teacher, Carl Malmsten, concerned about that? Or was he more of an instructor?
Jim Krenov	Carl was everything he wanted to be and more. He had visited the Barnsley's and I'm sure he was aware of the A&C Movement, but what he imposed upon all of us was strictly Carl Malmsten. An he did impose it! I knew Carl before the days of rout-it-quick do-it-on-the-shaper attitudes. He certainly advocated the proper use of all classic tools.
Larry_Clinton	I asked if he had a favorite wood he liked to work with.
Jim Krenov	Favorite wood? Yes and no. I enjoy the kinds of wood hard or soft light or dark that respond well to cutting tools. I don't enjoy fighting wood - for any result!
Carole_in_VA	I'm glad you said that! LOL
Dale_L	What woods are 'fighting woods'?
Jim Krenov	Rowed woods are nasty usually - bubinga and others of a similar nature. Woods that are very soft can be more difficult in doing joinery than woods that are firm and even hard but smooth grained. The ultimate test would be dovetailing balsa wood.
pam	:)
Agee	I've never seen any balsa model airplanes with dovetails, come to think of it.
Dale_L	Thank you, Sir.
Ellis	I think I'm gonna try that tomorrow. :-)
Greg	I never had that kind of time when I built them....heh, heh
pam	Ellis, you can cut the dovetails easily enough, but it's when you try to join the pins and tails that the wood fails.
Agee	Jim, have you ever ventured into any other materials besides wood?
Jim Krenov	No really. From childhood I grew up with wood. I appreciate deeply other media such as pottery, weaving etc. But, I've stuck to wood and I'll always be stuck with it.
Agee	Not a bad place to be.
ZenIowa	Thank you for spending your time here this evening, peace.
Warren_Muse988	Jim, Just curious: When you start a new piece, do you work on it fairly steadily until it's finished. Or do you 'walk away' for a while?
Jim Krenov	Sometimes I run -- not walk -- away! But only briefly. We all have our ups and downs and at 84, I am no exception.
Greg	Congratulations Mr. Krenov!
Norman	Jim, you've been typecast
Ellis	You are definitely an exception. I can't play tennis to save my life. :-)
Yeung_Chan	Jim, each kind of wood has a tool to deal with it, right?
pam	Yeung_Chan, what does that mean?
Yeung_Chan	I mean; in general, for soft wood, you use regular plane, for very hard wood, or "rowed wood" you use a scraper plane
Dale_L	Jim, are there other wood masters you are fond of their work? Such as Nakashima, Maloof etc.?
kengrunke	Jim, would you consider smell to be a factor in your love of wood? My favorite is the sweet, spicy smell of ash.
Ellis	What an interesting question.
Greg	I like the smell of bloodwood - like weak cinnamon
Jim Krenov	There are fragrant woods and no smell woods and stinky woods. Your choice is as good as mine, maybe better - am I being flippant? Yes, I like fragrant woods like Lebanon cedar.
Alan_Y	Mr. Krenov Do you lead your students down a path? Or do you watch their inclinations and encourage adjustments?
Scott_in_Eastern_Iowa	Air drying white oak kinda reminds me of vanilla at times
Agee	How about others who delved into other "forms" of wood like Eames with his bent plywood?
pam	I see, thank you. By regular plane I assume you mean 36-40¡ bedding?
Ellis	We can go on as long as we want here, but one thing I would like to know is what advice you would give to newcomers to woodworking?
Joanne	Ellis, I think we lost Mr. Krenov again.
Greg	Jim, could you explain how someone "finds" their style, or do most woodworkers just "know " it...?
Yeung_Chan	Pam, 45 degree plane, if you fine tuned them they cut end gain easily with great result
rustym	Mr Chan...Do you have any plans for another book?
Agee	Yeh,and talk about the bevel up lanes at different angles.LOL
RayT	I don't want to be forward, but perhaps Yeung could be a special guest some evening.
Ellis	I bet we could convince him.
Dan_D	Hi Dale
Agee	I love the bevel up planes.
pam	I guess I was asking about soft woods. I've had end grain success with 38-43¡ eastern planes.
pam	However, I'm making some higher angle dai, so I'll try the 45¡. Are you writing a book about hand planes?
Agee	While Jim is gone, Pam, it seems to me that the angle is less important (to a point) than the sharpness. I don't think many users get their irons really sharp and then make a judgement.
Yeung_Chan	This is JK's evening, let's listen to the master and learn from him as much as possible. planes? leave it to another time, ok?
pam	OK, but Jim's not here right now.
Agee	Good idea Yeung.
Agee	When Jim comes back.
Ellis	I just got off the phone with them...
Carole_in_VA	I sure hope I am still in my shop at 84! LOL
Warren_Muse988881	I'm on dialup, which is why my name keeps getting longer!
Ellis	They will be back, as soon as the gerbil-powered ISP in Ft. Bragg gets its act together... :-)
Scott_in_Eastern_Iowa	me too Carole !
Yeung_Chan	what is "LOL" mean?
Joe_in_Cleveland	Anybody know what Jim meant when he talked about dryness of wood?
Carole_in_VA	Laughing out loud
Carole_in_VA	literal...dryness
Bri_in_Mtl	I had trouble getting in here so I guess I missed out....sigh
Warren_Muse988881	lack of "wetness"
Carole_in_VA	lol
	........JIM KRENOV HAS ENTERED THE CHATROOM.........
JohnP384	Carole, I have a friend who is 80 and bicycles about 100 miles a week. Just take care of yourself.
Dale_L	Joe, Jim was talking about moisture in wood
Joe_in_Cleveland	ok Carol, wasn't sure... didn't know if it had a deeper meaing or something. Got it.
Jim Krenov	Hey it looks like we're back in the running. Just a little computer glitch.
Spence	WB Jim
Agee	It is more useful when it is really dry. The wood does not move as much and is easier to manipulate.
Ellis	Welcome back.
Ellis	I don't know where we were but, what advice would you give to newcomers to woodworking?
Carole_in_VA	Jim, do you go by actual moisture content (a meter) or by the feel and actions of the wood when determining dryness?
Scott_in_Eastern_Iowa	there it is
Carole_in_VA	Sorry Ellis.
Agee	Jim,I have seen you have representation in NYC. Do you have elsewhere?
Jim Krenov	For newcomers - Find out how much material means to you. Your feelings and your ideas don't jump into wood. Work your way into it.
Greg	Mr. Krenov, could you explain how a woodworker finds their "style" or do most already "know" what they want to present in their work?
Jim Krenov	I do not have a moisture meter. But, I think one can with the use of logic and one's own sensitivities develop a safe relationship to it. Remember, however, never rush wood unless you are absolutely sure that it is ready to be rushed.
Bri_in_Mtl	difficult to put your ideas into wood after the wood has had a lot of preparation..
Carole_in_VA	I have been told by my mentor to always try to get wood that has been cut in late fall when the sap is down. Is that correct?
Agee	But how are you sure when it is ready to be rushed?
Jim Krenov	Style is a dangerous thing to get involved in. To me, the less you think about it, the better. Simply express your ideas and your feelings and remember that by time, these too may change somewhat. So, then, what is style?
Carole_in_VA	I would think style evolves as ones abilities and experience evolve.
Larry_Clinton	Jim, are you working on any projects now?
Jim Krenov	If we follow rules like that, we will use very little wood.
Joanne	Do you have favorite "assignments" or "projects" to help your students develop their ability to express themselves in the wood and have the result be something good?
Agee	I get the impression from your books and interviews that a lot of your philosophy in woodworking is based in "form follows function" but still your pieces turn out beautiful !
Norman	Jim, in your cabinet construction, do you advocate other types of carcase joinery aside from dowels..
Jim Krenov	Projects now? Yes. Krenov makes boxes, little boxes. Some on stands, some without. Each one a little different, he hopes.
Agee	Am I incorrect in assuming that you weigh heavily the function of a piece in your work?
Ellis	Folks, I have just gotten the high sign and we're going to wrap it up.
Ellis	But, Jim has agreed to join us again to continue this conversation again soon.
Carole_in_VA	Thanks Mr. Krenov for your time!
JohnP384	it has been a great evening
Jim Krenov	I'm retired now, but going back, no. I simply wanted my students and me to estimate what project suited each one at that particular time.
Ellis	I want to be the first to thank you for being with us tonight, Jim. Hopefully, we can do this again. Maybe I’ll bring my laptop and darken your doorstep the next time. Thank you so much for joining us.
Ace	Thank you Sir for this evening
Spence	Thank you Mr Krenov
Greg	THANK YOU!
Joanne	Thanks for visiting. Thanks, Ellis
crackerjack	Thanks Jim,Ellis
Scott_in_Eastern_Iowa	G'nite All......Thanks Jim for the time spent w/ us tonite.....and thanks to you as well Ellis
Bill_Murphy	Thank you Mr. Krenov.
John_H	Thanks from Indiana
miami	Thanks Mr. Krenov.
Warren_Muse988881	Thanks Jim, Ellis, everybody...
AndyL	thanks
MRubes	Thanks, Mr. Krenov, thanks Ellis.
Norman	Thank You Jim and Ellis for the evening chat...
Agee	Tanks!
WJE	Thanks Jim
Larry_Clinton	Goodnight Jim, thanks for your ideas & knowledge. Really enjoyed this session , Night all, Thanks Ellis.
Dale_L	Thanks Jim for sharing with us tonight
Ellis	It is my privilege to be able to do this. Thank you for joining us tonight.
kengrunke	:-)
Greg	Please come back to visit anytime!
Spence	Thanks again to you too Ellis
Spence	G'nite everyone
Bill_Murphy	Thank you Ellis...outstanding evening.
Ken_DeMarco	Thank you Mr. Krenov!!
Kent	Thanks and to all a good night
Bob_L	Thank you, Jim and thanks Ellis. It has been an enjoyable evening
Ellis	You are all welcome. If you want to stay around after Jim leaves to discuss the evening's chat, please feel free.
Yeung_Chan	Thanks, JK and everyone,and good night!
Spence	Please join us soon again Mr. Chan
RayT	Thanks Jim and Ellis, hope to see Mr. Chan in the future and see all you finishers tomorrow night
Carole_in_VA	G'night Mr. Chan. Come back and join us!
Jim Krenov	Form & function - what I weigh, is simply the net result. Beauty is a function. Some things we make are simply intended (hopefully) to be beautiful. That is legitimate. And often, it becomes a simple and honest goal.
......JIM KRENOV HAS LEFT THE CHATROOM....... Our guest has left, but you're welcome to read on to see how this chat winds down. I hope you all had fun!
Bri_in_Mtl	Hope I can get a transcript.. I missed a lot
Greg	Yeung please come back and visit with us as well!
Norman	Take care Yeung, hope you join us for a chat soon as well..
Agee	I met an 85 yr old woodworker the other day, Mr Krenov. He said that he hasn't stopped woodworking, only that his projects have gotten smaller!
Ellis	:-)
Bruce_Foley	Mr. Krenov do you pick the wood for a project or does the wood speak to what it needs to be?
Ellis	We will have Jim back again in the not too distant future.
Agee	Thank you Ellis. This must be a watershed event for WoodCentral.
Bri_in_Mtl	Be proud Ellis
Kent	Mr. Krenov has left the building.
WJE	Thanks Ellis, I enjoyed the Session.
Agee	I would imagine that having JK on should help you get other prominent wwr's on.
Bruce_Foley	Kudos Ellis, I believe that the bar indeed has been raised. Thanks again.
Carole_in_VA	Night all. Thanks again Ellis!
ddubs	Congratulations and good night, Ellis. Jim hung in there for a fair amount of time.
Ellis	Thank you all for coming tonight. I just got off the phone with Jim and he says he enjoyed our chat very much.
Ellis	He wants to come back soon
Agee	Ellis, how do YOU feel about tonight? Did it come off as you wanted? Any changes you would make?
Ellis	I was worried about the potential confusion of an unmoderated chat, but you folks came through in fine fashion.
Ellis	I'm torn about what to do differently.
Norman	Ellis, I never thought I would be speaking and hearing directly from JK. Good work putting this together
Ellis	My pleasure.
Agee	You (and the Woodcentral folks) provide a great example of how to talk on the internet
Ellis	Lord knows we try
Ellis	Yeung will be back as my guest soon, too. We need to get him a typist, though.
Agee	What are you torn about? I have to moderate many sale meetings and am always interested in others thoughts.
Ellis	The choice is between spontaneity and control
Norman	I alwsys feel like the guest is being overwhelmed with questions.
ddubs	The side chatter was distracting, but maybe that's the nature of these things.
Ellis	Unmoderated chats are more in line with my whole philosophy, but they leave us open to chaos.
kengrunke	JK was my first real guru -- from afar, through Fine Woodworking mag. Before I discovered woodturning
Agee	Yes, I know. spontaneity can be extremely enlightening. I think controlled spontaneity is the goal. In this format you have an interesting challenge.
Ellis	Too many questions can really unnerve a guest, especially one who is 85 years old.
Ellis	But Taimi did a great job, and she was sick tonight too. What a trooper!
kengrunke	does anyone know if we can access this chat with a seperate program (Ircle?) instead of the Java web interface?
Ellis	Nope, can't do. This is a java chat, period.
Ellis	Anyhow, I told JK I would send him a hat if he sent me a picture of him with it on.
Agee	Mr Chan, you said this was your first chat. Quite different from a group in person. Do you have any thoughts about tonight? I sensed a bit of frustration from you in one comment.
Norman	LOL
Ellis	Yeung, are you still here?
kengrunke	thanks, Ellis
Ellis	No problem, Ken. I wish I could offer multiple options, but this is a shoestring operation here. :-)
Agee	A golden shoestring tonight.
kengrunke	your efforts are very much appreciated :-)
Ellis	Thanks, Agee. And Ken. I'm so glad everyone had fun. I will edit and archive the chat later tonight or tomorrow.
Yeung_Chan	This is wonderful, thanks Ellis for putting all this together. I was frustrated because I read and type slow.
Ellis	I'll see you all soon.
Agee	I have had many heros in my life in many several occupations.This is the second time I have gotten to interact with one of them.It was very fun!
Ellis	Pretty amazing. It's after 11 and we still have 23 people here. Good work, folks! Thanks for coming...