CHATROOM

edited chat log a Special Guest Chat with PETER KORN      Woodworking Educator Ellis Walentine, Host Sunday, May 1, 2005 9:30 pm EDT CLICK HERE to visit Peter's website. Chat Topic: “Learning to Design”
Ellis	I'm pleased to introduce our special guest this evening, Peter Korn, Director of the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship in Rockport, Maine. Welcome, Peter!
Bater	Hi Neal & Peter
gypsydave_in_alabama	hi Neal
Peter Korn	Hello. Sorry I'm late.
MacS	WELCOME PETER
Carole_in_VA	Hi Peter. Welcome!
Neal__San_Jose_	'Evening all
Ellis	Welcome, indeed, to our chat.
Dustmaker	Is this particleboard desk I use fine furniture?
Ellis	's okay. Glad you're here.
Peter Korn	So, I've never been in a chat room before. Thanks for inviting me. This should be interesting
gypsydave_in_alabama	just like sittin' around a campfire
Bater	Usually is!
Ellis	We're interested in what you do up there in Maine, Peter. Tell us about your school.
Peter Korn	How much time do you have?
Ellis	Tons!
Peter Korn	Well, we take about 350 enrollment per year, teaching furniture making, carving, and turning.
Peter Korn	Our courses range from one week to nine months in length.
Peter Korn	They are taught by an incredible array of professional woodworkers from the USA, England, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Ellis	Wanna drop some names?
gypsydave_in_alabama	nine months!! That's quite a class
gypsydave_in_alabama	that's an apprenticeship
Peter Korn	Names? Some are well-known, such as Garrett Hack, Phil Lowe, Alan Lacer... But we don't so much look for "stars" as we do for the best teachers.
Ellis	What courses are the perennial favorites, Peter?
Carole_in_VA	Is there emphaisis on any particular style or period?
Dustmaker	I have seen a lot of new furinture with Dutchman in it I thought they where normally used to cover a mistake
Peter Korn	We encourage each student to find his or her own voice in design. Anything from Shaker-inspired to art furniture is fair game. We don't teach period reproductions, though.
Peter Korn	Have any of you taken classes at other schools? Which ones?
Ellis	So, where do you begin the course on design, Peter?
Carole_in_VA	I haven't...I am a beginner.
RayT	Yes, Marc Adams shool
Alan_B	Peter - why not period furniture?
Neal__San_Jose_	I can stick two boards together, but have difficulty with design. I have great respect with people like you, Michael Fortune, Graham Blackburn that can come up with designs that work. I guess that's why I tend to do reproductions of older designs.
Peter Korn	Ellis, all of our courses teach craftsmanship and design inseparably, Every student designs the piece he makes to incorporate the skills he wants to explore.
Ellis	That sounds like an ideal approach, Peter.
Peter Korn	We don't teach period furniture because: 1) the North Bennet School does such a great job already and 2) we are really about encouraging woodworkers' creative self-expression.
Ellis	When it comes to design, I suspect nothing is new under the sun. How do you approach design instruction, Peter?
Peter Korn	Neal, I believe that every person can design, given the methodology and encouragement, and I haven't been wrong yet.
Carole_in_VA	Do you think creativity in design can be learned, Peter?
Neal__San_Jose_	That's promising!!!
Peter Korn	You can learn to generate ideas and then translate them into reality, so yes, creativity can be taught.
Peter Korn	Can we teach you to be a great designer? I'm still trying to teach myself to be a great designer!
Carole_in_VA	How do you teach someone to generate ideas or move outside the box? Seems like a hard thing to teach.
Ellis	I wish I could have been the fly on the wall there all these years, Peter. I'll bet you have really evolved your design program.
Peter Korn	And Ellis, there's a difference between creativity and novelty. So much contemporary design is about novelty and not much else. Furniture design is really a way to describe how we think life should be lived.
Peter Korn	Damn, I haven't typed this fast in my entire life.
Carole_in_VA	LOL
gypsydave_in_alabama	What is your school's web address?
Peter Korn	www.woodschool.org
gypsydave_in_alabama	thanx
Ellis	You're doing very nicely, Peter! :-)
Carole_in_VA	"How we think life should be lived"...that's one of those phrases that will stick with me the next time I try to create something!
Ellis	Welcome to chatworld. :-)
Ellis	It's a good one, Carole.
Carole_in_VA	Sure is!
gypsydave_in_alabama	I'd create a mess using that philosophy!
Peter Korn	I know it sounds grandiose, but I ask myself why any of us want to design and build a piece of furniture, and it's certainly not because we need it functionally and practically, because it's actually easier to just go buy it.
Carole_in_VA	Not if you can't find what you want...which I usually can't.
Ellis	So, design comes from the specific design "problem" that we have?
Peter Korn	Ellis, yes, there is always a design "brief", a problem to be solved, even if that problem is just what will make me, the maker, feel satisfied.
RayT	My take is you teach someone how to think about the design process, then channel that thought process into creativity.
Peter Korn	Ray, that sounds about right.
Peter Korn	Except that thought is often the enemy of action!
RayT	Analysis paralysis
Peter Korn	You never get a sketch done by staring at the paper and thinking, you get it by moving the pencil, making mistakes, moving on....just like life
gypsydave_in_alabama	but action minus thought------yikes
Carole_in_VA	Do you often make changes to your initial design as you go or do you pretty well stick to the original design you came up with?
Mac	Dont you find that a game of croquet helps?
RayT	That is part of the process, do something even if its wrong, its just paper
Ellis	Right, Peter. Woodworkers have skills they want to apply. They don't necessarily have any design chops. How do you get them on the right track?
Peter Korn	Well, gypsy, with just a pencil it's not too dangerous.
gypsydave_in_alabama	lol
Ellis	What are the tenets of design that we need to bring to our work?
Peter Korn	To start, Ellis, we often have them do a variation on a theme, just to get comfortable with sketching, full-scale drafting, and modeling.
Peter Korn	One thing about our school, Ellis, is that we don't have a design orthodoxy.
Ellis	...beginning with a particular furniture form?
Peter Korn	There is not such thing as good design, just successful design, which is design that satisfies its brief.
Ellis	That's a good thing, Peter.
Ellis	Right. Function, cost, etc...
Peter Korn	If you don't like someone's work, you probably don't like the values that motivated his brief.
JohnP	that's a good thought, Peter
Peter Korn	Which Mac is that, asking about croquet?
Mac	me
Peter Korn	Ah, our outstanding turning teacher!
Peter Korn	I am curious about how all of you have gone about learning woodworking???
Ellis	This notion of a brief is intriguing. This would be one's particular statement of his design problem?
Carole_in_VA	Fumbling around, reading and asking questions on WC! LOL
JohnP	graduate of the Univ of Errors
gypsydave_in_alabama	I am in process of design/building a potato and onion bin---I have about 40 hrs in construction and at least 200 in sittin' and starin' at it
Peter Korn	Ellis, not everyone articulates their brief, but it's always there and always a good exercise to try to verbalize.
Bater	I hung out in my neighbor's shop! He was in the cabinet business!
Ellis	Sure, you need to know the starting point.
Neal__San_Jose_	You graduated, JP?
JohnP	yes, Neal, but grades weren't all that good.
Ellis	Seems that people learn by a lot of different means, Peter. Magazines, websites, personal contact, schools...
Carole_in_VA	I am still a "wannabe"...got all the tools and stuff, just haven't produced much.
Ellis	We're all somewhere on the learning curve.
Peter Korn	All good ways to go. I myself am self-taught, or at least I was till I started teaching with so many other people and learning how I should have been doing things all along.
FrankJ	Carole you do well. and a lot.
Carole_in_VA	I have gotten sidetracked by that spinny thing!:)
Peter Korn	Turning is seductive. We added turning to our curriculum last year and it's hot!
Ellis	Your school is a valuable resource for people who know where there are on the curve. Your instructors can move them along in a particular direction they want to go.
Carole_in_VA	I bet there is a huge waiting list, Peter!
Peter Korn	Ellis, absolutely. We have a very high teacher/student ratio.
Peter Korn	Carole, we do have wait lists for many courses, but we also have some that never run full.
Peter Korn	A course like Japanese Hand Tools doesn't have that large an audience, but we run it for those who are interested, even if it won't fill.
Carole_in_VA	Are the turning courses full? I bet they are.
Ellis	What are the most popular courses, Peter?
Dan_D	I think that websites such as WC are also a big advantage to new woodworkers. Where else can you get advice from as many experts for the best price::smile Of course, it also helps to have a live person next to you demonstrating things, but both are very good.
Peter Korn	The introductory-level turning courses are full, but we're adding another session in August, if you're interested. Some of the intermediate ones still have room
Carole_in_VA	I never could have even started before the Internet!
Ellis	Who is teaching turning, Peter?
Peter Korn	Most popular courses: turning, Basic Woodworking, Finishing, introductory carving...
Ellis	How do you teach carving?
Peter Korn	Alan Lacer, Beth Ireland, Michael Hosaluk, Stephen Gleasner...
Peter Korn	Al Stirt, Jacques Vesery
Peter Korn	Our carving teacher is Chris Pye, from England
Ellis	Yo, great lineup!
Carole_in_VA	Wow
Peter Korn	I, myself, don't know much more than which end of a gouge does the cutting.
Ellis	:-)
Peter Korn	Chris is an unbelievable good instructor. This will be his 8th year with us.
Ellis	I carve with a pneumatic sander and rasps.
Peter Korn	Ellis, I don't have the hang of those funny faces yet.
Ellis	We have just started a new carving forum on WoodCentral. I hope your folks will frequent it.
Ellis	Not to worry, Peter.
Peter Korn	Chris teaches with hand tools. Some of the turning instructors carve with flexible shafts, etc.
Ellis	Does Chris have a particular favorite brand of chisels?
Peter Korn	Chris likes the ones they sell at woodcraft. He feels they come with the bevels properly shaped.
Ellis	that would be Pfeils?
Peter Korn	Yes
Ellis	That confirms some suspicions. Thanks.
Carole_in_VA	He sells Auriou on his site, doesn't he?
Peter Korn	Chris Pye has a great web site and is very accessible by e-mail for questions.
Bater	Last Woodcraft catalog I got had Pfeils!
Ellis	So, where do people stay when they come up there for classes?
Peter Korn	Some camp, most stay in private rooms in shared houses for $250/week in the summer. Some rent private apartments.
Peter Korn	Then there are a lot of motels, b&bs, etc. but they are more expensive.
Ellis	...but you help them make arrangements, right?
Peter Korn	Ellis, what's your favorite glue?
Ellis	Hey, you got the smileys down!
Peter Korn	Yes, it is very easy to arrange housing through the school
Ellis	I like good ol' Titebond. What's yours?
gypsydave_in_alabama	my "brief" was a functional potato bin of gallery quality and style
Peter Korn	Titebond because it's non-toxic, but we use a lot of Unibond 800 for longer assembly times.
Peter Korn	And epoxy seems to be coming on.
Peter Korn	gypsy, how about sending a photo!!
Carole_in_VA	Hey, Gypsy, find a wood that prevents sprouting and you will have something!:)
Ellis	Yep. And we used to use a ton of West System epoxy for our gates.
Peter Korn	With epoxy wood seems to slide into place better.
Peter Korn	But I don't trust it for longevity.
Ellis	And stay there...
Jack_E	Peter what about hide glues?
gypsydave_in_alabama	no camera----and it's not finished yet----but close
Peter Korn	Hide glue is a pain in the butt!
Carole_in_VA	LOL
Peter Korn	Don't quote me!
Carole_in_VA	Never say anything in a chat room you don't want the world to know, Peter! LOL
Ellis	What do you know about epoxy longevity?
Ellis	We edit loosely here. :-)
Peter Korn	Ellis, I know nothing about epoxy longevity. I just don't trust it's long-term adherence for joinery, where it has to deal with wood movement. It is so inelastic!
Ellis	I know what you mean.
Peter Korn	Of course, I have lots of unfounded opinions I'd be happy to share.
Ellis	Don't we all :-)
Peter Korn	Ellis, what's the best woodworking magazine these days?
Ellis	I worry about those things, too, Peter.
Ellis	What do you think?
Carole_in_VA	LOL
Peter Korn	You first! Carole, what do you think?
Carole_in_VA	Slick dodge, Ellis
Alan_B	Other than longer clamp times - what don't you like about hide glue?
RayT	Two politicians making a decision
Peter Korn	I'll stick to glue.
Ellis	I have to be cagey. I like different mags for different reasons.
Neal__San_Jose_	I'll go first - Pop Woodworking
Carole_in_VA	I am getting a little tired of all of them, if want me to be honest! I still get PW.
Peter Korn	Real hide glue sets so fast you don't have time for assembly. Liquid hide glue delams in hot humid weather.
Peter Korn	I will say that I particularly like some of the profiles in Woodwork.
Carole_in_VA	They all seem to have the same thing only in different issues.
Ellis	Have you tried Pat Edwards' Old Brown Glue?
Peter Korn	No, should I?
Ellis	Yes. Tell him I sent ya.
Peter Korn	Okay.
Ellis	I like Woodwork, too.
Greg	me three!
Peter Korn	I stopped writing for magazines because how many times can you explain how to cut a dovetail?
Ellis	Woodwork doesn't seem to need to make money, so Lavine does what he wants. It's a very tasty book.
Peter Korn	What's the scoop on that?
Carole_in_VA	I liked the first issue of the Woodcraft mag but the price was tad steep for me at the time.
Greg	or set the edge on a scraper....
Ellis	Right you are, Peter. Nothing is new in mag world as far as I can see.
Peter Korn	Well, wood hasn't really changed all that much over the centuries, has it?
Peter Korn	Well, I don't know where all you bon vivants live, but in Maine this is an hour past bedtime!
Ellis	Geez, Peter, you guys turn in early...
Carole_in_VA	I think it (wood) has changed, acording to the "old time" woodworkers I talk to. They say it is very difficult to find wood as good as it was 50 years ago. I wouldn't know, personally.
Peter Korn	Well, did you know that Maine should properly in in an earlier timezone than the rest on New England?
Ellis	I get all the mags and I don't know that any are really a cut above.
Jack_E	9:30 here
Ellis	Pop Woodworking has been coming along nicely lately.
Peter Korn	Carole, you are absolutely right in that. I've seen the change over the past 30 years at the lumber yards.
Carole_in_VA	They published my tip, so I have to like them, Ellis! :)
Peter Korn	I, too, have heard good things about Popular Woodworking.
Ellis	No I didn't know that, Peter. You should be in the same zone as Bermuda.
Peter Korn	As Newfoundland?
Ellis	Chris Schwarz has energized that magazine. Check out some of the guest chats he has done here.
Peter Korn	Will do!
Carole_in_VA	I like the fact that they added a turning section.
Peter Korn	Ellis, is there much difference among the different woodworking shows that travel the country?
Ellis	Well...
Peter Korn	I haven't been part of the world.
Peter Korn	I mean, part of that world
Ellis	I am partial to the WoodWorks shows, although they are only in about eight venues.
Ellis	The Woodworking Shows are in about 30 or more venues.
Peter Korn	I'll look up the WoodWorks shows.
Ellis	A lot is the same. WoodWorks concentrates more on the teaching program.
Ellis	www.woodworksevents.com
Ellis	I happen to know the webmaster :-)
Carole_in_VA	Gotta go. Thanks for coming, Pter! Nite all. :)
Ellis	So, Peter, are you going to be there all summer?
Peter Korn	I'm always here all summer. There's sailing when there's free time/
Peter Korn	Best time of year!
Ellis	I'm planning a trip to NH in June and I might be heading your way.
Peter Korn	Please do come out!
Jack_E	Peter Does your school occupy most of your time or are you involved other aspects of woodworking?
Peter Korn	Jack, running the school is more than full-time. I get to make one or two pieces of furniture a year and I'm doing some personal writing. It is a very satisfying life.
Ellis	I wish I could find time to make a couple pieces per year.
Peter Korn	Weekends!
Peter Korn	When there are no leaves to rake, overtime to put in...
Ellis	I don't have weekends. :-) I do turning because it's fast.
Peter Korn	Turning is the creative sport for the modern world.
Ellis	I still design furniture in my off hours. I'm not looking for customers anymore.
Peter Korn	We have an incredible turning show in the school's gallery right now.
Ellis	I'll bet. Can't wait to stop in and see what's up there.
Peter Korn	It can be seen on the gallery page at www.woodschool.org
Peter Korn	This summer it will be a faculty show.
Jack_E	Your web site is quiet informative
Ellis	Remember about 25 years ago, Peter, in Philly? The Heartwood Craftsmen guys? Where have the years gone?
Peter Korn	Ellis, do you remember the show Furniture by Phila. Woodworkers? It eventually led to the Phila. Fine Furnishings Show, at least in my imagination.
Ellis	You bet, Peter. I still have the catalog. You and I were both there.
Peter Korn	Because it introduced Bob Ingram and Josh Markel
Ellis	Yep. And they took off from there.
Peter Korn	My only first prize!!!
Ellis	You deserved it.
Ellis	Those were the days. But, so are these.
Peter Korn	I'll finish up by saying that this is a great time to be involved in woodworking.
Ellis	Peter, thank you so much for visiting with us tonight! I hope some of our visitors will have the chance to experience your excellent school.