  WoodCentral Special Guest Chat Adam Cherubini February 22, 2005 [EDITED] |
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| ............................ Adam_Cherubini joined............. | |
| Ellis | Hello Adam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | The man of the half hour! |
| MikeGnSC | Howdy Adam |
| Ellis | Welcome to the WC chat. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Welcome to my 15 minutes gentlemen |
| Chris_Schwarz | So Adam, Before we dive in, what are we drinking this evening? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Chris, What are we drinking this evening? I'm picturing you cracking a fine stout this evening |
| Chris_Schwarz | Hilarious. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Oh that's too funny. Great minds drink alike. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Tetley's |
| Chris_Schwarz | Tonight it's "Bad Elmer's Porter" Which my wife calls "Bad Christopher's Porter." |
| Ellis | What would an eighteenth century woodworker drink? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | English Mild? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Beer |
| Adam_Cherubini | Whatever he had, as long as it was beer |
| Chris_Schwarz | Hear hear. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Hail, hail the gang's all here! |
| Ellis | I would like to welcome our guest host Chris Schwarz and his very special guest, Adam Cherubini |
| Chris_Schwarz | Thanks Ellis |
| Adam_Cherubini | Hi everybody. Thanks for having us |
| Ellis | Our pleasure. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Before we launch into this discussion, I'd like to say a few quick words about Adam. One of the big problems in all forms of journalism is what the pointy heads call "validation by repetition." This is where the same stuff gets repeated so many times (i.e. hand plane soles must be 100 percent completely mil-spec flat) that it becomes gospel. Irrefutable. So when most of us first encounter Adam and his take on woodworking, it's like a bucket of ice water down the pants. When you first stumbled on one of his posts here, I'm sure many of you asked: "Who is this cat?" And that's why we're here tonight. |
| Chris_Schwarz | First question? |
| Carole_Valentine | Well I for one really enjoyed your article on the striking knife, Adam! |
| Chris_Schwarz | I presume that your first exposure to woodworking was through your family's boatbuilding business. Even accounting for that, you've become immersed in the craft in a way unlike most woodworkers I know Ð first with the power tools and then evolving (or devolving) into hand-tool use. You skipped the power tool part of the 12-step and went straight to "spiritual awakening." Could you tell us how that happened? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Hey wait! Come back! We get better! |
| Chris_Schwarz | No, we don't. That's all I got. |
| Ellis | :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | My Dad was sick when I was of age to learn the family trade so I never learned jack. I saw some stuff. But I learned as much from you guys as anywhere. From you and like you. |
| Chris_Schwarz | So when did woodworking become important? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Maybe that's why I'm here tonight |
| Adam_Cherubini | Anybody else like fancy furniture? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Like "Shaker"? |
| MikeGnSC | if i could make it...i would |
| mike_recchione | Like Ikea? |
| Carole_Valentine | LOL |
| Ellis | Chris, I'm intrigued by Adam's immersion in early trades. I would like to know more about how to relate those early skills and sensibilities to today's hectic schedule. |
| Adam_Cherubini | You can Mike, and that's that point here. If i can, you can |
| Ellis | To me, fancy is Chippendale. |
| William | Depends on your definition of "fancy." Shaker isn't fancy enough for me. But there is lots of furniture that is way too fancy. |
| Adam_Cherubini | This might take a second Ellis, but worth noting |
| MikeGnSC | to me fancy is ball and claw legs/feet and ornate carvings |
| Ellis | This is a real interest to me, Adam. |
| Adam_Cherubini | As busy as we are, as pressed for cash as we are, that's why early trades make sense. We have more in common with 18th craftshops than 19th century factories |
| Ellis | In my shop, I like to keep things flowing. I imagine the old craftsmen did it even better. |
| MikeGnSC | you've seen my shop |
| Adam_Cherubini | You can flow work by sequencing your work. By not 4-squaring and working to a cutting list |
| Chris_Schwarz | One of the most shocking figures I ever saw was the amount of time it took an 18th century shop to turn out a particular piece of furniture. |
| Adam_Cherubini | You plane a little, join a little, saw a little each day |
| Ellis | How shocking was it? |
| Chris_Schwarz | It was in Jeffrey Greene's book |
| Adam_Cherubini | We need to do a lot more research in that area. That's what the Hand Tool challenge was about |
| mike_recchione | Adam, did you mean you work to a cutting list, or you don't? |
| Dan_D | short or long time Chris? |
| Chris_Schwarz | And it was high boys in a few days |
| Carole_Valentine | 4-squaring? Am I the only newbie who doesn't know what you mean? |
| Chris_Schwarz | very very short |
| Adam_Cherubini | Just like you Mike. I don't |
| Dan_D | Adam, are you still planning to institutionalize the challenge at WC? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Absolutely. But i want better projects and better pictures and i want to plow in all Ellis and your comments |
| Ellis | Right, Chris. Those guys didn't waste time, and look what they created. Not that we all need to be so effective. |
| Russ | Short time, many man hours |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's about focusing your attention where it's important. |
| MikeGnSC | what about those peices that took craftsmen several years to build...was it because it took that long to find the right piece of wood for each particular panel or drawer front, ect? |
| William | 4-square means basically the same as S4S. two faces and two edges flat and square to each other. |
| Dan_D | Adam, What do you mean about better projects? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Mike- The documentary evidence suggest one week for a chest 3 for a secretary |
| Chris_Schwarz | How many men? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I mean, it's not one guy on a secretary is it? |
| Dan_D | I think that the few directions given gave it a lot of character. You really need to think and people came up with things similar, but different. I really liked the results. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Just imagine what a 6 month piece would cost now. Who could possibly buy such work. |
| Russ | 1 craftsman and 6 apprentices?? |
| Chris_Schwarz | We get caught up in this "single maker" mentality. Was it a collaborative effort? |
| Adam_Cherubini | We don't know how many guys, we only know the price. We can back off from there to mandays/manweeks |
| Chris_Schwarz | And what do you conclude? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Apprentices may not have been paid, but somebody still got billed, right? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | I don't think there was much collaboration as we think of it in our "team" environment. Very top down authortarian I should think. |
| Adam_Cherubini | HEY JEFF-- Right. That's what i think, but others disagree |
| Chris_Schwarz | In a pro shop you have several guys doing different jobs. Not like home guys build furniture. |
| mike_recchione | Adam - the urban legend is that the apprentices did the work that machines do today - ripping, scrubbing, etc. Your research has led you to conclude that that wasn't the case. Could you talk about the actual workflow in a cabinet shop? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good one mike |
| MikeGnSC | i figured the apprentices did the "grunt" work |
| Chris_Schwarz | Especially since we call them our "tailed apprentices" |
| MikeGnSC | kind of like a carpenter's helper today |
| mike_recchione | But I believe that wasn't actually true. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Mike, We just don't know for sure. But experimentally, it doesn't work to have some mule in the shop-That's industrial revolution thinking. Projects just weren't assembled that way |
| Chris_Schwarz | Were apprentices just given simpler projects? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Perhaps something painted? |
| mike_recchione | My grandfather apprenticed in a shop that might as well have been 18th century. I still remember some of his stories |
| Adam_Cherubini | I can only saw as long as I can run.--half hour okay. One hour, and I'm pretty spent |
| Chris_Schwarz | And so we're not as lazy as we think we are then? |
| Adam_Cherubini | And these sub processes only need to be what the master needs. You decide as you saw |
| MikeGnSC | an apprentisship was a considerable amount of time?...you started at the bottom cleaning up and worked up to more important tasks |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | is there no documentation of the processes? |
| mike_recchione | Also - remember the apprentices were between 11 and 17 years old. Could an 11 year old rip hardwood all day and not die? |
| Adam_Cherubini | None Dave |
| Chris_Schwarz | There certainly is documentation of the prices for the processes. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Well, now you're talking about London rules. The early apprentices were in by 18, out by 25 |
| Chris_Schwarz | So Adam, let's talk about the processes |
| mike_recchione | That's interesting. My grandfather was apprenticed at 11. He was married and had his own shop by 17. |
| davek | Charles Hayward ran articles on his personal apprentiship around 1914 in Working Wood in the 1980's |
| Chris_Schwarz | How did you start researching chisels, for example? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I tried to cut mortises the way I read and I couldn't do it |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've been working with one of yours and it's ... weird |
| Chris_Schwarz | Read in a woodworking magazine? |
| Rob_in_KS | Any idea on how many people worked under the master? Would it be one or two able to work almost independently, then another one or two under the "squire" and master? |
| Dan_D | What do you mean weird, Chris? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | One of his mortise chisels? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah, whaddya mean? |
| Chris_Schwarz | No a firmer. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Recchione didn't like it either |
| Chris_Schwarz | I used it like Moxon and you suggest. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I almost dislocated my shoulder after a day at it. |
| Ellis | :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'm not convinced I'm right guys. I don't know it all. Haven't got it all figured out. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Does it get better (the work not the shoulder) |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Yes, Adam, describe that bit in Moxon. I've sat with the book and a chisle in hand and not sure I have that grip down? |
| MikeGnSC | In the eighteenth C, didn't an apprentis have to make all their own tools/ |
| mike_recchione | Actually, I adopted your method for mortises after you demonstrated it at CJWA, and it's what I've used ever since. |
| Adam_Cherubini | No Mike |
| Chris_Schwarz | Right hand grabs the blade. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Pinky behind the blade |
| JimC | I agree with Chris, I tried it and had a sore elbow for a couple of days |
| Dean_J_in_MN | yep so far |
| Adam_Cherubini | I don't use that grip, but watch for an upcoming article |
| Chris_Schwarz | Left hand on the handle. Against the shoulder. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Push. Bevel down. |
| JimC | It worked good for defing the mortise, though |
| Chris_Schwarz | Your whole body is like a hand plane. |
| Chris_Schwarz | You are the frog. |
| Dan_D | ribit ::smile |
| Chris_Schwarz | It works. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | OK., that is what I came up with too. Just cut all the mortises for a table with that method. .. |
| Chris_Schwarz | There's a learning curve. |
| William | I tried what Adam showed us at CJWA, too. It seemed to start out OK, but either I was doing something wrong, or I'm going to need a lot more discipline and practice. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I was working with bench height as a factor, too. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Its not that hard, but you need the right handle on your chisel |
| Adam_Cherubini | And it may not work in bubinga |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think it's a valid technique. Don't get me wrong. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I have the "honking big" kirsh (sp?) handle Adam. |
| Adam_Cherubini | HEY PAUL- nice knife, BTW |
| Chris_Schwarz | But it's one of the harder things I've tried to pick up lately. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Yep, I questioned the method in hard maple, the legs I was working were walnut, much easier... |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'll bet if you saw me do it, you might find it not so hard. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Adam sent me these photos of this monstrous rabbet he made. And I'm convinced. |
| Dan_D | a video? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I don't see a lot of hard maple furniture. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good point. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I don't see kiln dried Hmaple either :) |
| Joanne | See, Ellis, we DO need little teaching videos on WC. |
| Chris_Schwarz | How about flame maple? |
| Adam_Cherubini | We need to be careful how we apply these techniques |
| Dean_J_in_MN | And after my bench project, I don't want to see any more hard maple either. :) |
| Ellis | (We're working on it....) |
| MikeGnSC | how would it work on cherry? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Works well on cherry |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do you mean we need to be realistic? |
| Chris_Schwarz | In goals and tools and materials? |
| MikeGnSC | I just got some spalted cherry from my brother |
| Adam_Cherubini | Now now. I'm just saying there are contextual bounds |
| Chris_Schwarz | Can we dicuss old wood for a minute? |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | contextual bounds? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Was the old growth different to work? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Was it straighter? |
| Jack_Ervin | Old wood as in 18th century? |
| MikeGnSC | I've worked with old growth wood but it was pine |
| Adam_Cherubini | Funny you mention- I got some spy photos a few months ago of second growth HD crap in a 1720 chest |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've found old pine to be hard to work... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Like hard maple.... |
| William | If it were growing in a climax forest it should have been straighter and slower growing, due to competition from other trees. |
| MikeGnSC | this was from an old cotton mill...heart pine |
| Adam_Cherubini | Where there was a knot, the guy whacked it with a hatchet so he didn't have to plane it |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Yes, old SYP can be very brittle. |
| Ellis | Old growth wood is generally finer grain than contemporary wood. |
| MikeGnSC | it burns good too :) |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | big difference between old growth and old wood |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, do you think the stuff we work with now would have been burned? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Isn't it usually fine ring pitch |
| Chris_Schwarz | Charcoal fodder? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Fine ring pitch? |
| Ellis | Yes, Adam, and climate, too. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I think its a dead end for us, though. 18th century lumber doesn't make that much difference. Now, cuts of lumber... |
| Chris_Schwarz | OK cuts of lumber.... |
| John_H | Adam, advice on a beginner trying to learn the old ways without using explatives? Books, videos etc?? |
| Ellis | What intrigues me is what lessons from the 18th century can be of use to our stressed-out woodworkers of today? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Perhaps turning off the machines. |
| William | I have some old white oak, but it is in an area that has been farmed since the 1600's, so it is not straight grained, but the rings are incredibly close together. |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, does that make it harder or easier to work? |
| Adam_Cherubini | John and Ellis- Two questions, one answer- Experimental archeology. Start from where they did. Understand their conditions, and you'll both find what you are looking for |
| glenn | Hand tools themselves seem to relieve stress, primarily if the process, rather than an instant gratification, is the goal. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But I don't think hand tools are slow. |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | one of their conditions was a 16 hour workday |
| Adam_Cherubini | Thomas Dennis cut down close to a dozen trees to get one or two good ones in the late 17th century. He was fined for cutting more than his share of the commons- Rob Tarule |
| glenn | The tools aren't slow. Some users, maybe. |
| Ellis | These folks worked in rustic conditions, yet produced extremely fine work. |
| Ellis | Without benefit of tablesaws or spray booths or Shapton stones. How was that? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Right tool for the job, Ellis. |
| William | It was planted in the early 1700s, but came down in a storm a couple of years ago, so it is not seasoned for a long time. It is easier in some ways than new oak, because the rings are so close together that on a macro scale it acts more like a diffuse porous wood, but not quite as strong as wood with more dense latewood. |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | they were taught by the best |
| Chris_Schwarz | Don't use your smoothing plane for everything, Ellis. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah and they started with milled lumber like we do- different mill |
| Adam_Cherubini | Those were white oaks specifically BTW, William |
| Paul_in_NJ | I think they were motivated to put food on the table while many of us here do it just for fun. |
| John_H | As a person who watched a lot of Norm, how would I learn about thier conditions and thier finished work? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | And a mentality that did not think in terms of identical parts coming together in a final assembly as has already been discussed. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | A key Jeff, I think. |
| Chris_Schwarz | John H, good question. |
| Adam_Cherubini | John, I'd start in a museum or looking at antiques. The more the better. Then e-mail me off line and I'll give you a reading list |
| Adam_Cherubini | John- Its a short list. There isn't that much good information |
| pam | I don't know, Ellis, nothing rustic about the Williamsburg workshop. Maybe candles instead of electric. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Yes, talk to someone who does a lot of restoration. |
| John_H | I 'll take it, thanks! |
| Ellis | If you don't have any machines, it's rustic. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Hey pammy! That Hay shop isn't typical. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I thought rustic was coppice woodworking |
| Adam_Cherubini | Pam, we need to talk off line about that |
| Chris_Schwarz | BTW, Adam just returned from the Hay shop. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Keep it clean Chris. This is a family chat room |
| Ellis | So, how did these craftsmen accomplish so much in so little time? |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | there were machines----just no electricity |
| Jeff_Schmidt | And what were you doing there, Adam? |
| pam | Would love to, Adam. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Williamsburg? I went to the conference last month |
| Chris_Schwarz | I have the profanity filter on, but it didn't catch coppice... |
| Ellis | Was it the apprentice system that they grew up with? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | SAPFM? |
| Norman | I noiced a foo-operated tablesaw in a 1897 tool catalog |
| Chris_Schwarz | This was your first visit? |
| Ellis | Everyone overlooked it Chris :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yep |
| Norman | foot |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yep to both questions |
| Chris_Schwarz | What surprised you? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I don't get foot operated table saws |
| Chris_Schwarz | Was it the CNC machine in the back? (A legend?) |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Did you get extended access to the folks at the Hay shop? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Here's a personal admission. I've never been. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I simply stayed an extra day and BSed |
| pam | Did you wear your little ww outfit? :) |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Was Mac Headley there? |
| pam | BTW, none of the guys in the shop really wanted to bs when I was there asking questions like an idiot. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Okay, Okay- They don't care what was typical. They only care what was there. There's no low income housing either, because it wasn't there. So we need to be careful when we use Wmsburg as an 18th c model |
| Adam_Cherubini | Hey, I got to play the harpischord- "and very ill" |
| Chris_Schwarz | How does Pennsbury stand as a model? |
| pam | Sure it was, called slave quarters. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | That explains the Nicholson benches :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | Better than Ulmia... |
| William | For example, do you mean the C&W planes they use? Probably a lot higher quality workmanship and better steel than anyone had back then. |
| Carole_Valentine | So what we see in W'burg and think as typical 18th c is not? Was the typical stuff much simpler and more utilitarian? |
| Jack_Ervin | So what and where are good models? |
| RobertTarr | OSV-Old Sturbridge Village? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Or is there no good "model?" |
| Adam_Cherubini | see, I didn't want to talk about this- schlect |
| Carole_Valentine | LOL |
| Ellis | Okay, lets not |
| Chris_Schwarz | Got it |
| Adam_Cherubini | The Dominy shop is more my idea of a typical shop |
| William | The Nicholson benches they have were based on an unmeasured drawing, not much historical data to go on when the first one was built in the 1970s. |
| Adam_Cherubini | And they don't appear until the 19th century |
| MikeGnSC | where is the Dominy shop? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Winterthur |
| MikeGnSC | okkk...lol |
| Ellis | Wouldn't the original benches have been typical European benches? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Pennsbury is a poor model, but our heart is in the right place- just liek Wmsburg |
| MikeGnSC | and winterthur is where?...i'm from the south...you have to type slow |
| William | Originally, it was on Long Island. DuPont moved it, intact, to Delaware. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Yes. They switched later to Nicholson. |
| Adam_Cherubini | French benches- felibien |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Except they did have tailvises, which was not typically French. |
| William | It is outside of Wilmington, towards West Chester, PA. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Can we talk about benches a bit? |
| MikeGnSC | ok...thanks |
| Adam_Cherubini | Worth a trip- and the library has Nicholson |
| Chris_Schwarz | Are we constrained by the gizmos we buy for them? |
| RobertTarr | Ellis, did you ask your Holdfast question? |
| Ellis | Not yet. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Let's put together a bench webpage for beginners and beg Ellis to link it up |
| Ellis | By all means, Adam |
| Dean_J_in_MN | chris, constrained only how clever you can use your bench |
| Dean_J_in_MN | And if you listen, it tells you things |
| Adam_Cherubini | And let's put Jeff and Dean in charge of it |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Chris, don't you think that is true of all of most of our handtools? We generally look for tools to solve problems, not techniques. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I also think we tend to move to unnecessary complexity. |
| William | web page - good idea. I just built two of them. One traditional, one eclectic, to say the least. |
| Ellis | Do you want to discuss the features of a good bench or the differences between different kinds? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Look at hand planes. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do we need everything on there? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Ok Adam, I'll stop talking.. . LOL |
| Adam_Cherubini | Gizmos? No. Its the first decision we make, then the die is cast |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes, but we add things to benches like AC and cruise control. |
| William | Brains solve problems. Tools help. Sometimes they do the job, sometimes they help you build another tool that will do the job. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Dean, I'm not kidding. You're using a bench that no one has used in over 100 years. your experience is important and we want picture dang nabbit |
| William | Some times it takes several iterations. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I will have a digi camera for use next week. |
| Ellis | Sounds like a plan |
| Chris_Schwarz | Yes Dean. Show us your bench. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I'll post it on the hand tool side when I get photos. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'd like to see an updated version of Bob key's page with reasons why and a good basic dimensioned drawing. One with modern joinery and materials, one traditional |
| Ellis | We're all agreed that the bench is the foundation, though? |
| William | We guess that the traditional one I restored was probably built around 1840ish. It has lots of lessons. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Do tell, Sir William? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | And William, we are waiting for round two of pictures of that beast. |
| William | I posted a "before" pic. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Pammy, what kind of bench are you using? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Jeff, didn't you build a Nicholson style bench? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Or is it a beam? |
| pam | Still using my Japanese modified Viet Nam made cheapo. |
| Adam_Cherubini | What does it look like |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'd like to design a bench around the stuff at the local HD, but I'm not convinced everybody can get the same material |
| pam | It's a 5' bench with an end vise and a planing beam attached to the back. |
| Chris_Schwarz | How high is the benchtop? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Roubo-ish. I do sometimes wish I had a tailvise. |
| Ellis | Ian Kirby did one like that for us, Adam. Quite functional. |
| Adam_Cherubini | And doesn't it have a face vise? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Legvise |
| Chris_Schwarz | You sure? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Tail vises are over rated |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Jeff, hook on the face? |
| William | We replaced a lot of missing stuff, and worn out stuff. and added trestle feet, to raise it to accommodate modern practices and height. Other than that, it has a wooden leg vise, wooden tail vise with square dogs, and a tool tray, |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Today, I would rather have twin screw face vise. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Sounds Eurpoean. How long? |
| Ellis | What is the best height? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Oui, Le Hook. |
| pam | Here's what it looks like, http://www.woodirect.com/ . I don't have the front vise. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Height! |
| William | This old one is the only bench in our shop that has a tail vise. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Ellis- lower than most say |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Jeff, do you use holdfasts or pegs on the front left leg with your hook> |
| Chris_Schwarz | When I look at historical drawings it's difficult to say. |
| William | I'll have to get measurements. Much shorter than a Shaker bench. |
| Ellis | Standard planing height seems to be around 33 inches |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Holdfasts. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I was looking at Roubo and they didn't look that low... waist high |
| Adam_Cherubini | That's hard to say, Chris |
| Chris_Schwarz | They had guys in the engraving, working on them. |
| Adam_Cherubini | II guess I trust experimentation too much. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Adam, do you think iron planes vs. wooden planes change the default bench height? |
| Ellis | Now there's a specific question |
| Adam_Cherubini | No, but I think the planing stop vs the tail vise does |
| Paul_in_NJ | 18th century people were smaller. Wouldn't their benches be shorter? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Dean might be on to something there. |
| Adam_Cherubini | That's a myth Paul. Maybe shorter than you and I on average. Yes, their benches would be smaller |
| Chris_Schwarz | I certainly get different feedback from wooden planes that has nothing to do with the weight. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Waist high is pretty high. My bench isn't waist high |
| Ellis | What's the rule of thumb? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I know Adam. It was weird. I need to look again. But they didn't look low. I must have gone through half a dozen plates with Joel that night. |
| Adam_Cherubini | The rule of thumb is palm height, and that's probably too high. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Mine is mid-upper thigh height. |
| dave_schaefer | crotch height??? |
| William | We raised its height about 4 " to about 37", IIRC, since we have "very robust" forked tailed apprencices. |
| Chris_Schwarz | We fought bitterly. I argued for lower. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | No but your hands are sitting a good 2 inches above the postion they would have on a Bailey plane |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Right Jeff... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jeff, I think you have a good point with Dean there. |
| Chris_Schwarz | When I work with wooden planes, I want an even lower bench. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'm telling you, Chris. Dean and Jeff are DA MEN |
| Chris_Schwarz | Perhaps you need a posse for your column? |
| Adam_Cherubini | One of these guys will likely take over Arts and Mysteries when I burn out |
| Ellis | I made my new bench at about 35 1/2". which is high for a guy who is 5'8". But I have a lower bench for extended planing sessions. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Or a theme song.... |
| Adam_Cherubini | RIGHT |
| Dean_J_in_MN | A theme song would be nice.. B |
| William | If you can stand over it, you don't need as heavy a smoother, since your body weight adds to it. |
| Chris_Schwarz | So Ellis, is 35.5 to help your back? |
| Ellis | Forward it to me and I'll make wav files. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Ellis, I think there is this thing where you control the wood loosey goosey under the plane |
| Adam_Cherubini | Without the tail vise or anything except the planing stop |
| RobertTarr | Mine is 35" high (I originally did this to match the height of the TS) and it feels right for me, but I am 6'3" |
| Ellis | That height is for chopping, paring and all the things that I do in the course of a project except extended planing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've watched Don McConnell work this way, Adam. And it's hard to describe.... |
| Adam_Cherubini | Really? See, this is new to me. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I learned this at Pennsbury |
| Chris_Schwarz | The wood shift, he shifts, the work gets done well... |
| dave_schaefer | just finished a bench @ 33.5" high |
| Chris_Schwarz | Don't know where Don picked it up. |
| Ellis | I think I understand your loosey goosey idea, Adam. You lose leverage as the height creeps up. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I have to take some picturess of those wacky planes there |
| Chris_Schwarz | When I first saw it I was amazed. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Height seems to be a trade off between jointing, surfacing and doing finer joinery. Oh...and age. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Chris, he didn't use any battens at all? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Learned a lot using those planes. And too thoughtless to let my friend Paul play with them. Sorry paul |
| Ellis | I admit that age was a slight factor. Plus back troubles. |
| Chris_Schwarz | No Dean. Just a stop. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Sounds Kirby-esque |
| pam | If you use Japanese planes you can stand a higher bench. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | How wide was the stop? What was it made of? |
| Chris_Schwarz | First saw it at a Woodcraft demo. The stop was real narrow. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | toothed at all? |
| Ellis | Yes, Pam, except that you want to be able to use your shin as a holdfast. |
| pam | Nope, not for planing. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah, I'm not so sure this is different East and West. I'm thinking this is the same |
| Chris_Schwarz | It wasn't his bench. It was metal, squarish, toothed. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | My stop is only 2 inches wide. I am constantly adjusting the board for the line of planing. Sounds like I need to watch Don. |
| Paul_in_NJ | Well I'll just have to visit you again Adam! When do you start at Pennsbury? |
| RobertTarr | I am guilty of using a sharpend drywall screw into a wooden dog (cone of the screw about 1/8 above the plane of the bench) as a planing stop |
| Dean_J_in_MN | OK, I think I know the stop.. |
| Adam_Cherubini | We want jigs to hold our boards, and that doesn't make sense in their shops |
| pam | No, Adam, but my hands are a couple or three inches higher when using western planes. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Jeff, my stop is a 3/4" peg. :) |
| Chris_Schwarz | Serious? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | yes |
| Chris_Schwarz | Dang |
| Chris_Schwarz | You gotta send some photos! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Maybe a mov file. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | but I make use of holdfasts and battens. They are my helpers. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Dean, do you use a batten with holdfast as well? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | yes |
| Dean_J_in_MN | unless the piece is small, like the table legs, then just the stop. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'm telling ya Chris |
| Ellis | I used to have 1/2" dowels for the same purpose, Robert. Tap them up to whatever height. Then learn to gauge your plane vectors accordingly. |
| Chris_Schwarz | You constrain the board with a batten on the far side |
| Dean_J_in_MN | yep |
| Chris_Schwarz | Hmm. How do you affix said battens? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | holdfast |
| pam | Screws work. |
| Chris_Schwarz | How many holes do you have in your benchtop? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | 6 |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I broke down and added another the other day. |
| Adam_Cherubini | He only needs a couple if he uses a batten |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Right. |
| pam | None, but in my planing beam there were lots, seem to heal over pretty well. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do you plane really wide stuff, too? 12" wide, etc.? |
| Adam_Cherubini | He can get a lot just by swinging the HF foot |
| William | Intentional or unintentional, too? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | I think the big advantage of only using a stop in lieu of a tailvise is flipping the board around while smoothing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | My stop is narrow and is in my tail vise. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Yep, that is why I added a new hole. : I needed to stop the board from spining, so I have a second 3/4 peg in line with my plane stop. Those two pegs and a batten and I'm set. |
| Chris_Schwarz | That way I can set it to different heights -- if need be. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Williamsburg says 1 hour/bdft to surface. In my shop its more like 2 minutes. It just isn't worth fussing with. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | 1 hr/bdft! |
| Adam_Cherubini | No comment. |
| RobertTarr | What?!? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I asked several times. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | So that "second" stop is used for wide boards Chris. |
| gypsydave_in_alabama | based on? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do how do you saw dovetails? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | No, Robert was responding to YOUR time! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Do you have the twin screw? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Twin screw face |
| William | Chris, Using your tail vise as a stop puts a lot of wear on it. You should be planing in the other direction, and just use the dog in the vise to counter rotational forces. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | on the right hand side |
| Dean_J_in_MN | front left is a wooden hook. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Ah... Dean has my next bench. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Mine too |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Dean, next you are going to tell me it is 10 feet long. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | You helped Adam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | OK Dean, I have an article to talk to you about. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | No Jeff. 8 feet |
| Adam_Cherubini | Tell him Dean |
| Dean_J_in_MN | 8 feet, only because that is all the longer the maple was |
| Adam_Cherubini | I think it belongs in A&M |
| Chris_Schwarz | I want to feature six benches with dimensioned drawings, a photo and a defense of the design.... |
| Chris_Schwarz | from each woodworker. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Not about building it. But about using it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'd love to see historic benches in A&M |
| Adam_Cherubini | Right- using, and design |
| RobertTarr | sounds like a very nice article Chris |
| William | Are you interested in hand tool only benches or mixed hand and power shops for this article? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | We can talk. I'm not much of a writer... Or even woodworker.. :) |
| Chris_Schwarz | A mix. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Dean, we will talk. Adam knows I latch onto things a bit... |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I see that. :) |
| Chris_Schwarz | So Dean's bench is one bench. Klausz? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Kirby? |
| Adam_Cherubini | But what you're learning Dean, is important. And not to single you out, because there are others, but I hope you realize how this really is work nobody else is doing |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Adam, we let that little comment about spending 5 nanoseconds surfacing slip. Since we are here to here about your efficiencies, could you go into greater detail on how you are able to do surface prep so quickly? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Right. The hook already reminded me how to plane... |
| Adam_Cherubini | I think Nicholson v Felibien grudge match, maybe Klaus through in |
| Chris_Schwarz | Excellent. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Dean's bench sounds like a cross between Roubo and Dominy. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I should talk to Landis then... |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Yep Jeff. |
| Adam_Cherubini | ... per bd ft? How long do you guys spend? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Only thing is the twin screw is metal screws. |
| William | Defense of bench designs? I work on several. All have lots of shortcomings. Maybe I should try to design two different benches, that back-to-back, will do everything. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I edge joint a 4' 4/4 in maybe 2 minutes |
| Ellis | Do you think there is an ideal bench? |
| Chris_Schwarz | I think there are fewer choices than you might think, Ellis. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | I am fiddling with my plane for 2 minutes. :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | Me? Yeah. I think the bench that lasted 300 years has got to be in the running |
| Paul_in_NJ | 1 hr/brd foot, was that rough to 4 square? |
| Ellis | I guess I'm just fishing for the most ideal features. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Jeff, that plane is preset and sitting under the bench with 5 others. You reach for it and go. Curved irons help |
| William | I don't, unless it started out with a hydraulic automobile lifter for a base. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Flexibility is No. 1 |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Yeah, I hear ya. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Being able to clamp anywhere. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And I won't talk about Shaker vanities. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Length is important |
| Ellis | Then, Jeff Noden's benches should be a good solution, no? |
| William | It would need a patternmaker's vise at one corner. |
| Adam_Cherubini | And technique is a big part of it. |
| William | Jeff's are too short. |
| William | Other than that, it is a very good idea. |
| Ellis | Jeff's bench can be any length you want if you provide the top and rails. |
| Chris_Schwarz | You also need to affix boards so you can work an edge. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | If you don't prep stock on your bench the options change. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I agree with the notion of the p-makers vise. They worked on a narrow range of projects. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | RIgh Chris, I was about to say that. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I don't get Emmerts. Sorry. |
| William | Yeah, but if you make it out of 3" hard maple, and 14' long, you would have a lot of trouble lifting any end with an iron vise on it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I think edge work is most importnat, since that's what you really need to make joints |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Good point Dean. The typical Frid bench seems better suited towards joinery and light planing. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Edge jointing is overlooked on lots of benches I see. |
| Chris_Schwarz | We had one for years and I hated it. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Tell me about it William, mine is 4" 8' hard maple and heavy... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Dean, it's a major omission. |
| William | Chris, you don't need the Emmert for traditional joinery, but it helps out a lot for carving, shaping, and other fine, up-close work. A Shaker wouldn't have much use for it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | We here should concern ourselves with removing the road blocks for the next generation. Benches are one of the biggest |
| Dan_D | William, add a hydraulic system to raise and lower it ;-) |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Adam, what tool(s) is a must-have for you, yet.....is not part of the typical 18th century inventory? |
| Dan_D | Buy an old car lift from a garage |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, I guess I do a lot of shaping and never miss the Emmert. Chairs, etc. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Jeff, I have only an electric wood lathe. Otherwise, all of my tools are part of the typical 18th-century inventory. |
| William | Yeah, that's where I started from, a while back. The only problem with most of them is that they rotate on the central cylinder. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Maybe sharpening stuff |
| Chris_Schwarz | So Adam, did you start learning 18th century stuff... |
| RobertTarr | Adam, how often do you reach for the hatchet while doing rough stock prep etc., versus a scrub type plane? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I tried that fancy sandpaper from Joel. I really like it |
| William | Yeah, I've built chairs without one. I just find it saves a lot of time when repositioning the work. |
| Chris_Schwarz | ... or did you start with Stanley planes? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | What sandpaper is that? Shark skin? |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, |
| Chris_Schwarz | I guess I'll have to take another look. You wouldn't pull my leg... |
| Chris_Schwarz | Shaptons. |
| Paul_in_NJ | Electric lights are a must for me! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Goodness, we do need to get Adam to do a column on sandpaper. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I have only a few stanley planes, A #4, #7, both ground straight for fixing other planes. I went to woodies early on. I guess I had a good experience with them- |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've been obsessed with sandpaper Adam. |
| William | I bought it early, and learned how to carve and shape legs on it. When I'm working and don't have it, I spend a lot more time thinking about sequence, and how to make my next cut. With the Emmert it became automatic. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Sandpaper for sharpening on. I don't use sandpaper on wood. That's like cleaning glass by smearing moly grease on it. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | what is this sandpaper you speak of? :) |
| Chris_Schwarz | The stuff in Gabriel's inventory. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Dean, it's mylar-backed micro-grit 3M stuff. E-mail later and I'll give you a list of what I have and recommend. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I've got to dig it up, but it's been around a while. The question is how much it was used. |
| Chris_Schwarz | What specifically was it used for? |
| William | automotive |
| Adam_Cherubini | Sorry dean I missed the joke there |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Thats ok. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Chris, I think that's a red herring |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I gave up on sandpaper sharpening, I couldn't avoid rounded edges. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Same here, Dean |
| William | The 3M guys came to CJWA this month, and handed out a bunch of samples. PSA backed, and very flat. It might work for SSª |
| Chris_Schwarz | So sandpaper didn't come into use until much later? 19th century? 20th? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Its an exception guys reach for to suggest planes weren't as good then or contemporary surfaces are representative |
| Jeff_Schmidt | I think that Don McConnell has a different view on that Chris. |
| Adam_Cherubini | They had it, and I'm sure some shops used it. But it doesn't fit into the shop as I understand them |
| Chris_Schwarz | Was it a low-quality item perhaps? |
| Chris_Schwarz | The flakeboard of the 18th century? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Surface finishes were different then. Attitudes concerning surfaces were different |
| Dean_J_in_MN | What was the "go to" surface finish Adam? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Is that why there's so much carving? (joke) |
| Adam_Cherubini | Not necessarily, but i guess i think woodworkers then and now did/should concern themselves more with sillouette than surface finish |
| Ellis | Explain, please. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Dean, real research is needed here and there is no smoking gun. I'd say whatever it was was dry and rough. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jeff, not following... Don's the one who let me in on the Gabriel inventory. ??? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Ellis, woodworkers are obsessed with wood. We love it. But you don't see that grain in your house. You walk past a big brown blob. |
| Paul_in_NJ | Like a Windsor chair I think, Ellis. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Exactly |
| Adam_Cherubini | What would you see in a house with two windows anyway |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Chris, I was saying that I believe Don would say that sandpaper was used more than we think. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Jeff, agreed. |
| Ellis | Hey, I live in that house... :-) |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Or the Shakers and the use of paint on their furniture. More common then I first thought. |
| William | ...and you see the shadows on the moldings and carvings, you see the shape and proportions, and the curves of the legs. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah right Jeff. He has said that. And even if its true, its not helpful. |
| Ellis | Good point about the perspective of woodworkers. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Its not helpful because it implies something that isn't fundamentally true |
| Chris_Schwarz | OK, this gets at a fundamental question I'm interested in. |
| Adam_Cherubini | But the whole truth is that we have no clue what they used it for or where. DeMuzio says the furniture was refinished 5 years after it was made. |
| pam | I wonder if we don't prefer furniture that fits in rather than yelling at us. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Not to mention the new feet it got.... |
| Jeff_Schmidt | But the surfaces of the 18th works that I have seen in museums were very, very smooth, including curved surfaces such as cabriole legs. Were these refinished? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Watson says they replaced all the windows in Philly by 1800 |
| William | What no "original finish" that the antique dealers tout so highly? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Skinned finish? |
| pam | I know I don't react all that well to garish grains. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Jeff- refinished 100 times |
| Ellis | Most of the best period furniture was pretty subtle, too, Pam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | What we know is that it was there. Like a chisel or a striking knife. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Refinished at each dusting, plus real mechanical refinishing early on |
| Ellis | But, but.... |
| dave_schaefer | I think the idea of partially forming wood with the use of sand grit is older than most think. The Eskimos of AK used it io help form wood, ivory, bone. If these folks knew the techniques, then it is silly to think that other cultures didn't. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And it would be interesting to see what good it would do in a period piece. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Right William. I laugh at that, too. |
| Ellis | Right, Dave. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Well, the Japanese never took to pushing planes :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | Why sand when you can plane, or shave or file, or scrape? What purpose does it serve? It serves modern craftsman who hasn't the tool to plane or shave or file or scrape. |
| William | The furniture makers down by the boats used mahogany because the labor was less, because it was easy to work, predictable, and definitly not garish. That's why I like working it. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Power sanding, certainly. |
| Adam_Cherubini | And its stable! |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'm talking about mahogany. |
| William | Yes, of course. |
| Adam_Cherubini | And people liked dark. |
| William | And it doesn't move as much if you wipe of the top of the table with a wet rag every day. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I suspect it contrasted with their whitish walls and darkish rooms |
| William | Dark is good, especially if you have a smoky cooking fire place in the same room. |
| Chris_Schwarz | But I've heard it put that sandpaper was the last touch. Short. Blending the different surface treatments (planing, scraping etc). Bunk? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yep. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Well, I see a guy like Phil Lowe use sandpaper in a way that I can envision it being used in the 18th century. He will smooth, scrape and then give it a light sanding with sanding block. |
| William | Or a warming fireplace in the front parlor. |
| Alan_B | Adam - do I understand you correctly in that no finish, or a wash coat, or paint was what was used? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I don't get it. He may do that because his esthetic or his customers demand it. I leave plane marks beause I think that's how it was. |
| William | Chris, that's the way we use it, to even things out, make everything uniform, so the stain doesn't surprise us. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I leave tear out, too. |
| Chris_Schwarz | LOL |
| Ellis | Absolutely. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'm going to send you some scrapers. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | NOW we understand the 5 nanoseconds/board foot. :-) |
| dave_schaefer | Adam, you sand because the culture you're in hasn't gotten to the iron stage in woodworking. |
| William | Our customers seem to put a lot of emphasis on color, and on the feel of the surfaces they touch. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I'm not kidding! Some lady from New England will pay extra for that piece. If she wanted a repro that looked new, she could go to Ethan Allen. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Color is affected by the tool that worked the wood last... |
| William | I'd prefer to just use planes and scrapers, but getting a consistent finish takes a lot longer, and a lot more brain power when the deadline is looming. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Finishes are hell- I say paint it or oil it and forget it |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, are you working to please you (very demanding) or your customers (not as sharp eyed as you)? |
| Ellis | Finishes can take half the time of completing a piece. |
| Adam_Cherubini | They better not. |
| William | Chris, Yes :^) |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I'm with Adam. Oil is my go-to finish. |
| William | I have to please the customer first. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Nothing really protects the wood, right? Its all just esthetics, right? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | I don't spend much time on finishes because I have 5 kids who are going to "distress" it in no time. |
| Adam_Cherubini | 5 Jeff? 5? |
| Jeff_Schmidt | So far. :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | My wife doesn't want me to do ball-and-claw work for the same reason. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Historical finishes... another good A & M topic. |
| Ellis | I use Waterlox for most stuff. It protects much better than straight oils. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Against what? |
| William | I think I need a finish that is quick, and more importantly, quick and easy to repair. We use blown on shellac, and blown on lacquer on top of that for table tops. |
| Paul_in_NJ | Patina |
| Ellis | Moisture and rings and stains and dirt, mostly. |
| William | Waterlox is good stuff, especially for kitchens. |
| Chris_Schwarz | If your servants oil it every few months..... |
| pam | I have to say that since I've starting using Japanese planes I've become very fond of unfinished wood. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Waterlox is easy to repair as well. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Try that one again Ellis. No finish doesn't get rings? dirt? You need to protect against UV light. |
| Adam_Cherubini | So the finish is really protecting the finish. |
| Ellis | No, I don't want to protect against UV. And yes Waterlox protects against all kinds of assaults. |
| Adam_Cherubini | I love you Buddy, don't get mad at me! (ducking) |
| William | I don't ever get rings on my WaterLox'd cherry kitchen table. My Watco'd computer table finish is about gone. |
| Ellis | Come see my kitchen table after 25 years. |
| Adam_Cherubini | UV is the enemy. Did you go to the Lewis and Clark exhibit in Philly? |
| William | I'm fixing shellac'd finishes for rings all the time. |
| Chris_Schwarz | We have a lot higher expectations perhpas as to how long a piece should go before it is refinished |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Pam, is that because Japanese planes give you a surface that lends itself to no finish? |
| Ellis | No, Adam, sadly. Is it still on? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I asked why the exhibit was so dark. They get fined if the artifacts received more lumens than the curator allows |
| Chris_Schwarz | Hence, poly, film finishes in general. |
| pam | Seems so, Jeff, kind of burnished. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Yeah, but William, you can just slather some more Watco on that table. |
| Ellis | UV is the enemy if the piece is subject to a lot of daylight. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Or uneven light |
| pam | Adam, tell them to check out Nuvir lighting. |
| Chris_Schwarz | With a film finish... |
| Chris_Schwarz | UV is a problem |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yes the exhibit is still on, but not for much longer and it won't be back for 100 years! |
| William | Jeff, I understand. Yes, it's great. Unlike poly, it doesn't shatter when scratched. The scratch is there, but when you put more on, the white color disappears. |
| Adam_Cherubini | You got me there Pam. What's Nuvir lighting? |
| Ellis | I should haul my sorry self south. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Pay no attention to the historic tools, though |
| Adam_Cherubini | The maps are cool |
| pam | It's fairly new, stands for "no uv or infrared," lots of museums get them, you get very bright, white light with almost no typical exposure problems. |
| Ellis | What did the eighteenth century craftsmen use for a finish? Spirit varnish? |
| William | Jeff, I also recommend Waterlox for wooden floors. |
| Chris_Schwarz | I saw some historic tools of Lewis and Clark at an exhibit in St. Louis, including a Millers Falls eggbeater. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Shellac |
| Adam_Cherubini | Oil? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Nothing? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Paint? |
| Adam_Cherubini | wax? |
| Ellis | :-) |
| Iowegan | Hand oils, the oils from whale lamps and candle wax. |
| Adam_Cherubini | All good answers. Unfortunatley we don't know which one is correct |
| Jeff_Schmidt | But at Williamsburg......:-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | The all have rip saws. |
| dave_schaefer | they are all correct.. |
| Adam_Cherubini | they look marvelous! |
| Rob_in_KS | Dang it, I hate to drop out now, but I gota go. Looking forward to the rest of this in the archive and my 1st Pop.WW. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Bye Rob |
| William | Of course we don't because the original finishes are long gone, in spite of what they say on Antiques Roadshow. |
| Ellis | :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | Good. He left. Now lets talk about him. :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | Tetley's huh? |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Chris/Adam - Only rip at Williamsburg, or Xcut filed saws as well? |
| Adam_Cherubini | LOL |
| Ellis | I'm not leaving. :-) |
| Chris_Schwarz | Good Question.. Adam? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Only rip, but rip with qualifiers |
| Dean_J_in_MN | what rake? |
| Chris_Schwarz | A 15¡ fleam qualifier? |
| Adam_Cherubini | They increase rake on finer pitches, and accept the loss in speed, or ignore it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | No fleam. |
| Adam_Cherubini | 30 degrees? |
| Adam_Cherubini | On a 12-tooth |
| Wayne_Anderson | Gotta go...feel free to talk about handplanes now...;^) |
| Chris_Schwarz | See you wayne. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Bye Wayne |
| Chris_Schwarz | So about infills... |
| Adam_Cherubini | Did I mention I got one cheap? I think it may have been stolen. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Whose name is on it? |
| Adam_Cherubini | Psst. Buddy. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Wanna buy an infill? |
| Chris_Schwarz | Stop it. It hurts. LOL |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Only if it has that cool front end like Chris's. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Nobody's. Its been filed like every other piece of hardware in Philly. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's probably been chopped and dropped by now. |
| Chris_Schwarz | ...with flames. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | And a toothed blade. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Its worse than that. |
| Iowegan | Those infills are so hard to set up. I always take a Nicholson 49 to the mouth to open it up a little. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I had to file the mouth open... But it is OK now. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And an upside-down blade with the wrong breaker. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Get good tearout like Adam now? :-) |
| Adam_Cherubini | You know it's sitting on some mulyacks shelf next to some burned up router bits, covered in mdf dust |
| William | I tried to write a few words about it and the scum who stole it. I ended up not posting any of them. Sorry, Chris. |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's just a thing. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Was. |
| Russ_Allen | I thought it was great the pw picked up the tab on the replacement. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | So Adam, no fleam. And I have only one small saw with fleam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Russ, yes, insurance was a wonderful invention. 18th century perhaps? |
| William | But Wayne built you another one, and both he and you still have the skills and the love of tools. All that guy's got is a cold piece of metal, that he can't show to anyone who would really appreciate it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah, I have two and I'm not giving them up. I'm not sure they (Williamsburg) are right, but I respect their guts to forgo without documented evidence. |
| Chris_Schwarz | Nice way to put it, Adam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, it might surface some day. And maybe Clarence Blanchard will get to auction it off. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | I was about to refile a 16" backsaw I picked up, but tried it as setup, rip but 20+ rake... Crosscuts well much to my suprise. |
| Chris_Schwarz | And I'll get to write about it. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Was it? I meant that they skipped them because they didn't have evidence, if that's clearer. Tetely starting to kick in or wear off. |
| William | It should bring quite a price, what with its notoriety. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Dean, then leave it and tell us how it works for you. Article #2, Chris! |
| Chris_Schwarz | Noted! |
| Ellis | Hear hear |
| William | I sure enjoyed the back page article about his last adventure. Too bad you only had one page to tell the story. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | So you think Moxon's description of saw filing is poor, that he overlooked cross cut saws? |
| Adam_Cherubini | I've tried using my 0 rake monsters and I don't like it. |
| Chris_Schwarz | William, yeah, but you got to hear the whole thing.... |
| Adam_Cherubini | They may not have distinguished between the two. |
| Chris_Schwarz | We should wrap this up. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Yeah, I have a meeting in the morning |
| Chris_Schwarz | OK all, thanks for coming. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Thanks all, very interesting! |
| William | I owe you some Chimay, the next time we get together, in thanks for the experience. Once in a lifetime. |
| pam | So, what happened to the striking knife discussion? |
| Ellis | Thank you much, Chris and Adam. |
| Chris_Schwarz | We'll do this again soon. |
| Russ_Allen | Thanks everyone. |
| Alan_B | Thanks, Asam, Chris, Wllis |
| Adam_Cherubini | This has been great fun. A lot more fun than last time, since I got off a dial up. |
| Jeff_Schmidt | Thanks Adam and all. Bye |
| Paul_in_NJ | Thanks all |
| Ellis | Looks like it will have to be a messageboard topic, Pam. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Sorry Pam. To be contuinued... |
| Chris_Schwarz | It has been a messageboard topic! |
| Ellis | Adam, thank you. Chris, this is a wonderful start to your handtool chat legacy. |
| William | Great discussion, guys. Adam said the mystery wasn't about the knife. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Thanks Ellis |
| Chris_Schwarz | It's not. |
| Dan_D | Very interesting night. Thanks to everyone that came. |
| Dean_J_in_MN | Cue Adam's theme.... |
| Chris_Schwarz | I'll turn this "log" thingy off now. Then you can *really* talk trash. |
| William | Well, today, I got the fire bricks and the torch, and the peanut oil, so I can harden mine. |
| Adam_Cherubini | Good night gentlemen |