CHATROOM

EDITED CHAT LOG a Special Guest Chat with WAYNE ANDERSON      Planemaker Extraordinaire with Guest Host Christopher Schwarz Executive Editor of Popular Woodworking magazine Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:30 pm EDT Topic: “Handplane Mechanics: Lessons from a Toolmaker”
Ellis	Our special guest tonight is Wayne Anderson, a planemaker extraordinaire. Chris Schwarz, of Popular Woodworking fame, is our host. Welcome all.
Wayne Anderson	Hello everyone
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Thanks much.
Chris Schwarz	A quick administrative note: When asking a question (or answering) could you please try to begin your statement with the person's name. Such as "Wayne: You do good work." This helped move my last chat along. Thanks.
darin	Wayne I am sure we all lust after one of your planes. Will you tell us what makes a plane good.
Chris Schwarz	Darin: Thanks for that.
Andrew_F_in__drizzly__Australia	So Wayne, what got you interested in planemaking
Wayne Anderson	Performance first, looks second.
Ellis	A man after my own heart.
Wayne Anderson	Studley Tool Chest
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Looks are a close second in your case.
Wayne Anderson	Thanks, Chris
Ellis	But the looks of your planes are beyond function...
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I often wonder how many woodworking obsessions were launched by Studley's chest.
Wayne Anderson	Functional art
Ellis	I guess, once you have the function, the looks are gravy.
Wayne Anderson	More than a few to be sure.
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Where I'm from (Arkansas) gravy is *everything*.
crackerjack	Wayne,what was the first plane you ever made?
Ellis	'specially on biscuits. :-)
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: Looks look easy, but that's the hard part.
Wayne Anderson	Crackerjack: An improved miter.
Ellis	I understand, Wayne. Your craftsmanship is outstanding.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Yes, the first plane. Plane-a-saurus.
darin	Wayne what makes a plane more or less functional.
Wayne Anderson	darin: It is a pleasure to use? Are the shavings thin? Is it effortless to use?
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: But what is the mechanical property you work hardest on? Bedding?
Chris Schwarz	Fine mouth?
Chris Schwarz	The lever cap pressure?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Yup. Fine mouth, dead flat sole.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: What do you think about Japanese plane soles?
Chris Schwarz	They contact only in.. two places I think.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: All the factors work in concert.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: What about weight?
Chris Schwarz	Is weight key in your book?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Have only used one Japanese plane. I don't feel I am capable of answering your question.
Chris Schwarz	No prob.
Chris Schwarz	But as to weight... wooden plane users have interesting things to say about it.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Weight is a big issue with me. The plane has to have presence in the hand. It's part of the whole feel.
Chris Schwarz	Personally, I want the weight.
darin	Wayne I'll give a example I have an old 607 and all of the L-N planes. I always try to use the 607 even when its the wrong tool it's just better but I can not understand why.
Chris Schwarz	But there is the perspective that the weight is more tiring.
Chris Schwarz	Any woodie users want to take up the charge here?
Chris Schwarz	Does wood give better feedback?
Norman	Does less weight/mass translate to more effort in handplaning
Chris Schwarz	I say no.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Inertia is important with difficult woods.
Chris Schwarz	But people I respect disagree.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	RE: weight, I know that the older cabinetmakers prefer the smaller planes (such as a No5) as it's the bigger planes produce sorer joints at the end of the day
bruce_n_oakville	hello all
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Inertia!
Chris Schwarz	Good word.
JohnM	Chris: I just got an ECE Primus smoother. I love the way that it "feels" on wood. It planes as well as my 4.5, but in a different way. Easier to use for a long period of time.
Ellis	I can appreciate the light weight and sensitivity of a Japanese plane, but I enjoy the heft of a L-N. There is room for both in my arsenal.
Chris Schwarz	I have always found that wooden planes require more downward pressure.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Wayne: I find that inertia can be good and bad. planes stall often because the grain is cranky - a plane with inertia can produce more tearout - my experience.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: I spend hours and hours lapping soles and don't find the weight to be an issue.
Ellis	If the plane is sitting on the wood, the weight is only a matter of sliding friction.
Norman	I have a metal 4.5, but I find I like to pick up a lighter plane for general purpose planing. I'm thinking of getting a No. 3 in the near future
Chris Schwarz	JohnM: Have you used a lot of metal planes before this?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Chris: I use a HNT Gordon jointer for cranky grain and find the combination of the high bed angle and a sharp blade works well in this instance
Wayne Anderson	Andrew: A combination of inertia and a light touch works well to get past the tough spots.
Alan_B	Wayne - what abrasive system do you use to lap plane soles?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	There you go Wayne, same answer at the same time
Wayne Anderson	Alan: Emery paper and a flat surface.
JohnM	Chris: primarily metal planes. The Primus is my first real woodie. I thought because of the lighter weight that it wouldn't perform as well, as I am generally a big fan of mass. But it works very well.
Ellis	What grit, Wayne?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I start with 60 and end up with about 600.
Chris Schwarz	JohnM: I like the ECE improved smoother. It's a trick to take apart, though.
Bob	and what surface do you use to flatten on Wayne?
Wayne Anderson	Hi Al!
Ellis	Might there be a production lapping method that would save you some of the trouble of lapping on such a procession of grits?
JohnM	Chris: it took me a while to figure it out! The lignum sole just feels so smooth when it glides over the wood. the lateral adjuster is useless though. I use a hammer.
David_B	Beyond performance issues, Wayne, I'd like to know how much handwork is involved in, say, the 'fluted' CocoChariot, as opposed to machined/milled, and how much do you rely on files for fitting, shaping and finishing? Also, do you use a flexshaft? And if so, to what extent and how?
Wayne Anderson	Bob: A large one-inch thick piece of plate glass.
Chris Schwarz	JohnM: Me too.
Bob	cool, thanks Wayne
JohnM	Chris: I'm wondering if the transitionals folks were onto something. Kind of a "reverse infill"
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Wayne, Do you find that there is a fair bit of lapping to remove surplus dovetails, to get the sole flat, and; as well, could you tell us how you get the side square to the sole
Al_DaValle	Hey Wayne. Thought I would listen in....my first forum. Love my new plane!!!! Had a chance to use it this last week.
Wayne Anderson	David: No flex shaft. I use a band saw to rough out the shape and its all files and rasps from there on.
Ellis	Well, tell us what attracted you to this plane, Al?
Ellis	Hi Dave
David_B	Thanks, Wayne. Do you use American and Swiss pattern files?
gypsydave_in_alabama	hi everyone
Chris Schwarz	Al's plane is the bee's knees.
Norman	John.. from what I understand, it was purely marketing and wodworkers of that era were not comfortable with all metal planes, so they made these hybrids
Ellis	Mmm, is that like the cat's pajamas?
Wayne Anderson	Andrew: Heavy files get rid of excess dovetails and lapping on the paper from then on.
Wayne Anderson	David B: Both.
David_B	Okay, thanks.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I'd like to chat about chipbreakers.
Chris Schwarz	Are you pro or con in general?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: What do you want to know?
Al_DaValle	I heard Chris talk about it and wanted something small for final touch up. The mouth is very, very small yet there is no trouble with clogging....a real treat.
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne: How do you achieve such a fine mouth on your planes?
Chris Schwarz	Al: Indeed. I covet your plane. That's not good.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: In the past they were problematic but now I am beginning to understand their function.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Thanks Wayne - do you square the sole to the side by running the sole on a square billet sitting on the sandpaper while lapping the side
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I actually don't believe they "break" a chip.
Wayne Anderson	Mike: Frankly, I bought a small mill.
Chris Schwarz	Otherwise bevel-up planes would be worthless don't you think?
Al_DaValle	Chris...I thought you had one.....you should!!!
Wayne Anderson	Andrew: Frequently checking with a good square.
Chris Schwarz	Al: I don't have one like *yours*. Mine's different.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Thanks wayne
Frank_D.	SO what do chipbreakers do?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	I'm in the early stages of putting together a similar plane to a spiers panel plane c 18" long
Wayne Anderson	Frank: They do break chips and they damp.
Chris Schwarz	Frank: I believe they added mass to thin irons and provided a way to adjust the blade as it's sharpened back.
Frank_D.	I see
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Chris - I see your point on the chipbreaker - perhaps it's a function of shaving thickness - you can't take a heavy shaving with a bevel up plane as easily
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: But I have woodies sans chipbreaker that work great.
k_foley	Wayne, I've admired those perfect bends on the backs of mitre planes made by yourself and also Bill Carter. I haven't found a reference on how to accomplish those. Are they bent around a pipe or form? Do you need to stop and anneal to prevent cracks?
Wayne Anderson	Frank: I use to think chipbreakers added value as a clamping device, but now I realize they can very easily be overdone as a clamp.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Over done?
Chris Schwarz	Do you mean they flex the blade off the bed perhaps?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Haven't tried a bevel-down plane without one yet.
Norman	Wayne, overtorqued?
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: One more reason for us to get together again.
Frank_D.	They have limits to the torque they can apply
Chris Schwarz	I have a Clark & Williams smoother that is a champ. No breaker.
Frank_D.	It's just a spring, the lever cap clamps
Wayne Anderson	K Foley: Careful bending over a big dowel does the job. No annealing.
Ellis	Many Japanese planes do not have chipbreakers. My hunch is that chipbreakers are mostly useful on heavy cuts.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Too much clamping with a chipbreaker will flex a blade.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Agreed. Especially with the old Stanley-style ones.
Chris Schwarz	The infill style have much less "spring."
Norman	Chris, maybe the chip-breaker really isn't needed with thicker irons
gypsydave_in_alabama	the heavy cuts need the damping
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: My biggest complaint with chipbreakers is they take more fussing than they provide benefit.
Chris Schwarz	And they promote clogging.
Chris Schwarz	At the mouth.
Chris Schwarz	And below the breaker.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: You could be right about that. As I said I haven't tried a beveled-down plane without one.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: By the way, my opinion on beakers is your fault.
Norman	And there must be no gap between the iron and chip breaker
Wayne Anderson	Chris: How's that?
Chris Schwarz	That old-style miter you made won me over.
Chris Schwarz	I'm going way more primitive these days as a result.
Al_DaValle	My sense is that chip breakers are more important on the larger planes (e.g. jointers) with larger mouths and less important on smoothers with very tight mouths.
Ellis	Jerry Glaser once did the math for me. He said that even with standard irons, the blade was thick enough that chatter shouldn't occur. That didn't exactly solve my problem. Why is there chatter?
Ellis	Mouth and depth of cut are my bets.
Chris Schwarz	Al: So breaker provide more mass for more cutting?
doggie	whats the problem?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Yes..... let's hear it for primative. No adjusters either.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Yes.
Ellis	How thick are your irons, Wayne?
doggie	Hey Wayne, woods on the way.
Chris Schwarz	Adjusters are getting in my way these days.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Ellis: My gut call says that support is also an issue - I used to deal with harmonics on a practical basis daily
William_OTC	YOu still need an adjuster, but it can be "primitive", too. e.g., a hammer.
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I generaly use 5/32 inch.
Al_DaValle	I think more agressive cuts requirer a breaker more.....avoids less tearout often associated with deeper cuts.
Chris Schwarz	William: Apologies. Mechanical adjusters.
Wayne Anderson	William: I prefer a one inch dowel.
William_OTC	I was just being funny, with tongue in cheek.
Ellis	AR AR
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Do you really? A dowel?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Yup.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: OK: How do you set an iron?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	About the same diameter as a wooden plane hammer
Chris Schwarz	Planbe flat on the bench?
William_OTC	I have one that is a bit more complicated. Lignum vitae on one end, brass on the other. It terrifies me that I might hit the wrong bit of the plane with the wrong end of the adjuster.
David_B	I really like a soft 3/4" copper rod as an adjuster.
Chris Schwarz	William: Sounds mechanical.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Set it on the bench, tighten the blade. Check with the eye and adjust. Takes about five seconds.
Chris Schwarz	And centering it beyond "by eye"?
doggie	forget the eye use your fingers they work better
Chris Schwarz	That's where I use a Warrington.
Chris Schwarz	Doggie: until you slide laterally one too many times.
Wayne Anderson	One problem with adjusters is they cannot be used when the cap is tight or they will self-destruct. And fine adjusting is required after the cap is tightened, so why bother with the adjuster.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Rightous.
Wayne Anderson	Doggie: so true
doggie	well I have adjusteded thousands that way and never cut myself. it's not hard to do and it is very accurate and fast
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: But I do like the Bailey adjust, as adjusters go.
Frank_D.	Does the cap have to be so tight?
doggie	if your tools are really sharp you have to work to cut skin
Al_DaValle	Wayne: Do you use floats to flatten your beds or just rasps (since you are dealing with both metal and wood.)
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Bailey adjusters work well on Bailey planes.
Chris Schwarz	Doggie: I've sliced myself twice. Thats why i use a wood shim a la Charlesworth.
doggie	wimp (G)
William_OTC	Chris, But it's a very nice hammer :^) Made my another Anderson. Sometimes, I use a small carver's mallet I turned from hedge. It works better, because I do not fear that I might ruin either the plane or the easily replacable mallet.
Chris Schwarz	Doggie: I prefer wus.
Wayne Anderson	Al: Rasps and floats, depends on whether I am flattening wood or metal.
Wayne Anderson	Al: How's that Chariot working out for you?
Chris Schwarz	Al: Yes, do tell. Which chariot do you have?
Chris Schwarz	We need a support group.
Al_DaValle	I assume you use the rasp when you are doing the final flatting of the assembled plane since you need to make a seamless transition between the wood bed and the metal sole.
Wayne Anderson	Al: That is correct!
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: And when you have a second let me throw this out: You work with a lot of exotics. Do you find that a fine mouth or a higher included angle is more important to reducing tear-out?
Ellis	A rasp or a float, Wayne?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: A rasp at this point.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Or sharpness? (Sometimes forgotten).
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Ebony planes well with the grain but is nearly impossible to plane the end grain - must use a rasp or file.
Ellis	How do you put the finish surface on the bed?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: Flat glass, emery paper.
Al_DaValle	Wayne...are you asking about the little 3"-4" beauty I bought last year? I love it....I find all kinds of uses for it. At first I considered it a bit of a novelty but find it on the bench on every project.
Ellis	How many planes have you made, Wayne?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I lost count after three or four.
Chris Schwarz	Ha. He makes a lot.
Ellis	...well then, how long is your lead time?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I currently make about one plane a week. My lead time is now about one year. It would be less if my wife let me quit my job!
doggie	Shame on you wanye what you did not number every one?? I tried that for a bit till I lost count (G)
doggie	Waye she wants to still eat (G)
Ellis	I won't advise you on that particular quandary.
doggie	never gonna get ritch making planes
Wayne Anderson	Steve: starving artists.
Ellis	High craft is rewarding in many ways.
Chris Schwarz	Starving happy artists.
Ellis	:-)
Chris Schwarz	So few people get rich in any part of woodworking.
Chris Schwarz	But I've never met more people who are contented.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: so few people get rich doing hand work.
Ellis	This begs another discussion
doggie	even Karl Holtey is not getting rich
Wayne Anderson	I didn't say I wasn't happy.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I know you're happy.
Al_DaValle	Chris: That depends on your definition of RICH. WWs have some of the richest lives I know.
Ellis	We can see you're happy, Wayne. Your work is outstanding.
Wayne Anderson	Al: so true.
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne: I noticed your website doesn’t get updated very often. I would love to see more of your work.
Wayne Anderson	Thank you, Ellis.
William_OTC	doggie, numbers are for pedantics and historians and artgalleryowners. Each of Wayne's planes might be named, but numbers are superfluous.
Norman	you can make a million at woodworking, as long as you start with two :)
Wayne Anderson	Mike: I have my web site updated when I do something new. I often do stuff I already have on the site.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Can I ask you about steel? In particular A2 vs. high-carbon?
Chris Schwarz	You use A2 mostly these days, no?
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne: OK, Thanks
Wayne Anderson	Mike: Did you see the saw and the bevels and the new entry in the chariot planes?
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I think I saw that saw.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: I begun to make my own irons out of A2. Having a good experience there.
Chris Schwarz	Do you find it gets sharp enough?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: I found that making irons is not rocket science, you just need to know how to dial the telephone to find a good heat treater.
William_OTC	How could you, or anyone else, be unsure as to whether they saw the saw? (rhetorical question :^)
Al_DaValle	Wayne...do you have plans on how to take you production to beyond 1-2 planes per week? Is this something you want to do. I know if you go full time you could double production....but what about beyond that?
Ellis	Is that what L-N uses?
doggie	(G) yep thats the hardest part
Wayne Anderson	Chris: A2 seems to be the best fit.
doggie	then hope they don't get lost coming to your shop
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Yes, LN uses A2, cryoed.
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne: I saw the bevels and saw, must of missed the chariot planes. The saw was absolutely beautiful.
Wayne Anderson	Al: I could be very happy with two per week.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I could be happy with two a week myself.
Ellis	I notice that A2 takes a lot longer to hone. I guess that's just the price you pay for that kind of hardness.
Ellis	Modest sort, ain't you, Chris?
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I am not an expert on cryo. I think the facts are subjective.
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: I don't find A2 hard to sharpen at all. Anyone else? I'd love to hear from others agree/disagree.
Wayne Anderson	Mike: Ask Chris about the saw.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Chris - I use M2 - sharpening is easy - grinding is a bear
William_OTC	Ellis, it seems to me that the planing time and the honing time are not the major issues. Instead, what really steals your time is switching modes between planing and honing. The less transitions, the better.
Chris Schwarz	Mike: That saw.... is one of my favorite cult objects.
Wayne Anderson	William: I make my own irons and extras are available.
Chris Schwarz	William: For the home guy, though, it's kinda moot.
Ellis	Chris, the honing time is a subjective call. It seems like it takes a lot longer to sharpen a LN blade than a standard chisel or Stanley blade.
Chris Schwarz	It's nice to be efficient, but it doesn't keep food off the table.
Mike_in_Maine	Chris/Wayne: I had never really thought of a saw as an objet d' art until that saw!!
Ellis	...but they last longer.
William_OTC	Chris, of course, it's the process and the enjoyment you get from it, not the time it takes you to produce the product, that is important.
Bob	Wayne, what steel was used for your saws?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Ellis: I grind when the length of the bevel is more than 1mm (ish) = a fat 1/32"
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne: How did you come up with the swan?
Frank_D.	Someone who spends an hour in the shop per week doesn't want to stop to hone though
Wayne Anderson	Bob: I used an Atkins saw blade.
Chris Schwarz	Frank: Someone who is in the shop an hour a week isn't going to hone often anyway.
Frank_D.	true
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	At this point, honing takes about 30 seconds to a minute on a bit of 2000# wet and dry - maybe softer Stanley steels are quicker, but at 30 seconds to actually hone, I don't see a significant difference
Ellis	.. Chris: and maybe he/she will appreciate it more...
Bob	tks, they are beautiful, love saws
Chris Schwarz	Frank: I know what you are saying though. We want to do things that make us happy.
Wayne Anderson	I find that a quick hone (a few swipes on the paper) is all it takes and a proper honing is only needed after a few hours of planing.
Frank_D.	Not mess with tools but wood
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Ellis: I tend to spend a lot more time fixing mistakes when I hone that may need a regrind
Chris Schwarz	All: I find that honing regularly *saves* you time in the shop. Less tear-out overall.
William_OTC	Frank, my sympathies are with anyone who loves woodworking and woodworking tool, who is limited to only an hour a week in the shop, or even ten hours a week.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Thanks Wayne - I work with a bit of green rouge on masking tape as a strop taped to one end of the bench - strop on this a couple of times before I resharpen
Ellis	Paper, Wayne? Are you a scary sharp practitioner?
	............................ TiO joined.............
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: yes, I use the SS method. I find that it works adequately.
Frank_D.	Do you flatten backs SS too?
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Have you tried Shaptons, Nortons or Kings? Can I send you some?
doggie	all the time Wayne and I have known each other and traded jobs I have not seen one of his planes in person
Ellis	Cool. What grit do you hone to?
Wayne Anderson	Frank: Yes, I work to 1200.
Norman	does anyone here still hone with oilstones?
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Sure thing.
William_OTC	I like SS, too, but it takes up a lot of real estate to do it right. I prefer the weight and space efficiencies of oil stones, for most sharpening.
Ellis	Not since the fire.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: OK. Box will be in the mail in the a.m. I'd like your opinion.
Chris Schwarz	Norman: I actually like my old oilstones.
Ellis	Oilstones have a lot to say for themselves.
Wayne Anderson	William: I have a large dedicated space for lapping and honing. I need it for what I do. SS is a natural for me.
Norman	Chris, I'm thinking about going back to oil for quick honing in the shop.
Chris Schwarz	Norman. I have one that is concave in the middle that was *great* for cambering irons.
Ellis	Right now, I'm using Shaptons.
William_OTC	Oil stones are still the most portable, least hassle method, if/when you are not working in your own well-organized shop.
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Same here.
Chris Schwarz	William: I still think oilstones are messy.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Norman - I use an oilstone at work - no problems with that either - I have the kids sharpening to shaving sharp freehand
William_OTC	But, I would use SS exclusively if I had a dedicated bench for it, that I could take with me.
Chris Schwarz	William: I tried SS for several months. Mostly, I burned up paper.
Ellis	I've never been able to reconcile SS vs 8000-grit waterstones or Shaptons.
William_OTC	Chris, so are water stones, and any other method that makes swarf :^)
Chris Schwarz	William. The only sharpening that is clean is when someone else does it!
Norman	I hear oilstones are messy, but waterstones in my opinion, are real messy. And the flatteniong to remove the dishing is geting to be a bit much
Chris Schwarz	Norman: Have you ever flattened an oilstone?
William_OTC	Chris, but you are right, the oil can have adverse effects on subsequent finishing processes DAMHJIKT.
Chris Schwarz	It takes as long as a plane sole.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Young Sir William, I just use a diamond stone as a backing plate for scary sharp and drop a 1/3 sheet of wet and dry onto the plate - by honing at about 10 degrees to axis of the plate, I find no dubbing of the edge and no need for large area
Norman	Chris, I understand they don't need to be flattened nearly as often
Chris Schwarz	Norman: No, they don't. But when you do... save the date.
Norman	Chris.. ok, I'll take this into consideration
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Back to planes....
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: What the heck were extensions for on infill planes?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Chris - I flatten oilstones on a bit of 60# wet and dry glued to a bit of glass - takes all of 2"
William_OTC	Norman, even with hard arkansas stones, eventually you will wear the surface out of flat.
Ellis	So Wayne, where do you go from here? Are you designing new planes? Is there a golden grail of handplanes that you hope to attain?
William_OTC	It just sneaks up on you a lot slower.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: They got you onto the wood prior to the blade making contact.
Chris Schwarz	Andrew: My stones don't cotton to that. I've found it to be very difficult.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: And they extend out the back too... why?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Chris - try kerosene as a cutting lubricant? but, anyway, back to planes
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I'm angling at a mouth position question here.
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: I would like to explore ancient plane styles similar to the acanthus leaf style plane I recently made.
William_OTC	Norman, I flatten my oilstones on a DMT diamond stone.
Norman	William, I hear that is the best method..thx
Chris Schwarz	Norman: Just be sure to use a blue or black DMT.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: I found, as you know, that a central mouth position gives different feel and is very beneficial for shooting edges.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: The ancient planes had a mouth position in weird places.
William_OTC	Norman, no it's not the best method, but it's quick and it's close enough for woodworking tools.
Ellis	Define mouth position for us, Wayne.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I've seen some old Roman planes that had it right up at the front. Old Japanese planes have it near the back.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: This needs to be explored further.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Wayne: Do you think that this is why another manufacturer has moved the mounth of their plane back from the front a bit
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Where the mouth is on the sole. Bailey planes have it in the front... 20 percent of the sole.
Norman	William.. ok, I'll try all this soon..
Wayne Anderson	Andrew: yes I do.
Chris Schwarz	Andrew, Wayne: I have a theory on mouth position.
Ellis	Chris: Ah, okay. We're on the same page.
Chris Schwarz	I think it's industrial design more than function.
Chris Schwarz	Look at the Stanley line #1 through #8.
Chris Schwarz	The mouth position is in relation to the whole line. Not the function of the tool.
Chris Schwarz	I want a smoother and a jointer with the mouth near the middle.
Chris Schwarz	It makes the plane act like a longer plane.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: I suspect this is true having come from an engineering environment.
Chris Schwarz	It hit me like a ton of brick when I started using your old-style miter.
Chris Schwarz	It's smaller than a #4. But it acts like a #4.
Chris Schwarz	There's real merit there.
Chris Schwarz	Norman: Glad you came.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: Too often designs are dictated by manufacturing.
Chris Schwarz	Or by the look in the catalog...
Ellis	Functionally, mouth position affects the dynamics of bearing down on the sole, and where the pressure would occur. Don't you think that a user would figure out how to apportion his energy?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	So, what you're sayin Chris, is that the smaller planes need to have the mouth set forward to fit the rear tote onto the sole of the plane, and this design requirement carried onto the larger planes, where they did have the luxury to move mouth location if needed?
Chris Schwarz	Andrew: Yes.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Fair enough.
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: A mouth in the middle makes the plane act longer than a Bailey plane. Rob Lee put up the equation on WC. It made my head hurt. But when i understood it... wow.
William_OTC	Ellis, he has to, no matter what tool he uses. Some tools are just a little easier to master than others. Others won't ever work properly.
Ellis	I'll have to review that one, Chris.
Wayne Anderson	You don't need an equation. Trust the feedback the plane gives.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	I've found. Chris, that I don't really use the rear handle on the bailey plane , but have pressure from my rear hand pushing down at the base of the rear tote as I plane.
Chris Schwarz	Ellis: Take some Excedrin first. It will help. Or a beer.
Chris Schwarz	Andrew: I like planes without rear totes.
Ellis	:-)
Chris Schwarz	And with the mouth near the center.
Chris Schwarz	And made by Wayne!
Wayne Anderson	Chris: My favotite plane is an unhandled smoother.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Once the plane starts cutting and there's enough of the job there to support the weight of the plane, I push from as far back as possible.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: But there is an important point here.
Ellis	I'll take one of those...
Wayne Anderson	You can tell I'm doing my own typing now!
Chris Schwarz	A rear tote helps you pick up the plane on the return stroke. But is that important?
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Learnt the hard way through about 2 straight months of cleaning up jointed surfaces
Ellis	Good question, Chris
Chris Schwarz	Does it dull the iron to drag the plane back on the return?
Wayne Anderson	My unhandled smoother is short, and I hook my finger over the cap screw. No tote required.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Really, Chris, that's about what I use the rear tote for
Chris Schwarz	Paul Sellers says it *sharpenes* the iron to drag on the return.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: I wrap fingers around the iron on the miters to lift on the return. But I wonder if I should....
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	I don't know about rehoning the iron Chris - it could be far fetched, but, then again, I strop on the palm of my hand, and that's a fair bit softer than the steel as well
Wayne Anderson	Chris: As long as you aren't moving the iron...what does it matter.
Chris Schwarz	Andrew: Sellers says the silica and whatnot in exotics keep the iron sharper when you drag on the return. Sounds crazy. But many truths do...
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: The theory is that the abrasion on the return drag wears the bevel.
Ellis	Folks, I'm going to have to leave you shortly. Thanks, Chris, for another edifying chat, and thanks, Wayne, for being our special guest tonight.
Wayne Anderson	Chris: It could be true.
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: Thank you for everything.
William_OTC	Chris, I would think it dubs the iron, but that shouldn't be really important, until you have reduced your relief angle to an unacceptable (dysfunctional) amount. With a bevel down plane, you'll fix it the next time you hone. With a bevel up plane, without a Charlesworth back bevel, you will have a lot more steel to remove the next time you hone.
Chris Schwarz	Well I should close this down, too. I have a bench to build tomorrow.
Ellis	My pleasure
Ellis	The trials of an editor, Chris.
Chris Schwarz	William: Ack! I need to ponder that. Good point.
Chris Schwarz	Still poor but happy.
Chris Schwarz	Wayne: Thanks man for agreeing to this.
William_OTC	Thanks, Chris and Wayne. Chris, I think I'll have to think more about it too.
Andrew__F_in__drizzly__Australia	Thanks Wayne, Chris and all
Frank_D.	Thank you gentlemen
Mike_in_Maine	Wayne/Chris: Thank you!
Wayne Anderson	Thanks all for the chat!
Chris Schwarz	William: Post something on the board when you come up with something. I'll jump in.
Ellis	Please carry on if you like. The room is still open.
JohnM	thanks wayne and chris, can't wait for the transcript
Bob	Thanks Wayne
Ellis	Wayne, thanks so much for joining us.
Bob	tks chris
William_OTC	One more thing: Thanks, Wayne, for very inspirational planes. True works of art as well as craftsmanship.
Wayne Anderson	Ellis: My pleasure.
RayT	Chris, thanks for the donation to the plane contest at Indyfest.
Wayne Anderson	William: Thank you for your kind words.
Chris Schwarz	Ray: Anytime.
Ellis	Ditto what Willem said
Chris Schwarz	Ray: Wish I could be there.
RayT	We will take pics
Chris Schwarz	Ray: Excellent. I wanna see the winning shaving!
RayT	If it doesn't blow away