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chat log
 "Metal Leafing and Patination" a Special Guest Chat with DAVID MARKS Designer/Craftsman Star of "Woodworks" (DIY TV Network) with host Ellis Walentine Wednesday, July 2, 2008 9:30 pm EDT |
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| Ellis | Good evening and welcome to the WoodCentral Chat Room. Our special guest tonight is David Marks, designer, craftsman, and star of DIY Network's "Wood Works." Among his many skills and specialties, David is an expert on metal leafing and patination, the subject of our chat tonight. Please welcome David Marks... |
| David Marks | Thanks, Ellis. It's good to be here again. |
| keithz | Hi Dave |
| Ellis | David, I'd like to start by asking you what place leafing and patination have in woodworking and woodturning. |
| David Marks | I use leafing and patination for embellishing details in furniture as well as for adding decoration to wood turnings, usually on the inside of a bowl or the outside of a vessel. |
| keithz | David, would you use leafing on the entire exterior of a turned piece? |
| David Marks |  Yes, sometimes I have used leafing on the entire exterior of a turned piece. See the piece Ellis posted on the message board. Although I have found that wood collectors want to know that the object is made of wood so now I design the piece so that I only cover 2/3 of it and allow some of the wood to show thru. |
| Mike_S | Does the natural contraction and expansion of wood have a deleterious effect on the leafing over time? |
| Stephen | David, do you oil or water gilt? |
| Paul_Kierstead | How do you keep it from going over the top? A visit to Windsor Castle gave me pause on leafing.... |
| Marv___Cal_ | David.....can the leafing be used on something that is handled a lot? |
| David Marks | Mike S, I stabilize the piece by putting coats of shellac on the interior & exterior, which creates an effective moisture barrier. |
| Mike_S | Thanks |
| David Marks | Stephen I definitely always use an oil-base size. |
| Stephen | Do you have a preference for any particular brand or type of oil base size? |
| David Marks | Paul that is a design decision and I would always avoid a 50/50 balance -- try to keep it asymmetrial, like 70/30, 80/20, or 90/10. |
| David Marks | Marv yes, just make sure it has a durable finish on it like lacquer or varnish, |
| Paul_Kierstead | Interesting, thank you. |
| Marv___Cal_ | Thanks David |
| David Marks | I am using Rolco quick-dry size. Occasionally I use Le Franc 3-hr size. |
| Ellis | What kind of metal leaf do you use, and where do you get it? |
| David Marks | I use copper, silver, dutch metal (a.k.a. composition gold) as well as genuine 22k and 23.75k gold leaf. I get the leaf thru www.artchemicals.com as well as seppleaf.com |
| Marv___Cal_ | David, what is the range of typical thickness of metal leaf? |
| Mike_S | On a turned piece, do you burnish with the lathe running and what do you use to burnish with? |
| David Marks | Marv, genuine gold leaf is extremely thin. It is beaten to a thinness of 3 millionths of a inch thick. I have been told that translates into 400 atoms. |
| CaroleV | Holy smoke! That is definitely thin! |
| Marv___Cal_ | Wow, now that is thin! |
| Stephen | I have heard 3 molecules thick on genuine gold leaf |
| David Marks | Mike I never burnish oil-gilded metal. True burnishing is done with a agate's tooth burnisher on a water-gilded surface. Do not burnish an oil gilt surface for you will scratch the metal |
| David Marks | I do light burnishing with a piece of genuine cotton after the piece has been dried for a number of hours. |
| Mike_S | Thanks |
| keithz | David, the DIY website shows your show on the Gilded Picture Frame is on the 6th. Is this a good example of your typical process? |
| Stuart | Is a finish applied on top of the metal? |
| David Marks | When I am laying the leaf in squares, I try to overlap the leaf by 1/4". |
| Jim_Shaver | does the overlap show David? |
| David Marks | Keith yes that is an accurate step-by-step process of how I do most of my work. You can go to the DIY website and download the picture frame episode for a step-by-step process |
| Paul_Kierstead | How does one just highlight a very specific portion, such as a portion of a moulding? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Or should I just read the website :) |
| keithz | David, can the gilding be done so the grain shows through? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Lets say just the eggs in an egg-and-dart (for example only, that might be gauche...) |
| David Marks | In regards to finishing, because the metal has a patina, it has to be sealed. Any finish you put on there will change the color. Generally your easiest bet is to seal it with a thin coat of shellac. I am using approximately a two-pound cut and spraying it on. The one exception is for silver. When I create the blue color on silver, I find the shellac turns it gold, so instead I use vinyl sanding sealer. |
| Stephen | What do you use to patina composite leaf? |
| Marv___Cal_ | For a gold effect, might be cheaper to use silver and spray it with shellac? |
| David Marks | Paul, I use 3-M fine line masking tape which is 1/8" wide. The best bet is to mask off the surfaces you want to protect; or, if that is too unwieldy, I do very accurate brush work using magnifying glasses to see the detail. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Ahh, the hard way :) Thank you, I suspect that was the case. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Might be worth it for that special frame or jewlery box. |
| David Marks | Do you mean the Dutch Metal, a.k.a. composition gold? |
| Stephen | yes David |
| Paul_Kierstead | Stephen will put it on pine though. (Hand tool forum joke, I am afraid). |
| Stephen | lol |
| GregH | David, say, someone was going to try it. What can be expected as the cost? For an "average" vessel what cost do you have in the process, leafing, and finish? Just a ball park. Can you do it right for $20-$50 per vessel, more or less? |
| David Marks | For Dutch Metal, a.k.a. composition gold, I used barium sulfide to create a nice orange golden color on the metal and sometimes sodium sulfide to get a range of light greens, reds, and blues. One of my favorites is a combination of 1/4 teaspoon cupric nitrate and 1/2 teaspoon of ammonium chloride added to 1 cup of warm water. Always add the chemicals to the water. This will give you greenish bronze effect on the dutch metal. |
| keithz | David, can you say something about how leafing works on different woods? |
| Dick_H | Woodturners Catalog has the kits for $16 |
| David Marks | If it is sliver leaf it is going to be more expensive, at $17 per book. You could use two books for a vessel. The copper and dutch metal are $7 per book, much more affordable. |
| GregH | Thank you David |
| David Marks | Keith, I would say I always use a foundation of shellac for adhesion. I am currently working on some collabortions with Gorst DuPlesis on some of his cocobolo decorative-turned bowls. The shellac works well to bond to the cocobolo. Once you have a shellac foundation, you can build anything on top of that. |
| David Marks | Dick, I am not familiar with the Woodturners Catalog kit. What is in it for $16? I sell a complete Gilding & Patination kit at my website. |
| Mike_S | David, where do you get all these chemicals you mention? |
| David Marks | Mike, I get all of the chemicals at www.artchemicals.com. They have a David Marks page with lots of info on it for supplies. |
| Mike_S | Thanks |
| David Marks | Hello Jennifer. It was good to see you in Virginia. I look forward to having you work with me at Marc Adams this Sept. |
| Jennifer_Shirley | Me too David! I'm really looking forward to it We'll have a blast I'm sure |
| Dick_H | They sell leafing kits: www.woodturnerscatalog.com |
| Mike_S | David, just don't let her near any camera equipment.... |
| David Marks | Yes we will! Lots of turning and lots of gilding and patinas. It does not get much better than that. |
| Earl_Kennedy | Here's Doc the snowman man. It was great Doc. |
| Mike_S | David, have you done much leafing over textured wood? | keithz | That's a good question Mike |
| David Marks |  Hey guys, take a look at the pic that Ellis is posting of a maple hollow vessel (quilted maple). I hand-painted the size in an irregular pattern to make it look like a pottery glaze. After I gilded it and did the chemical patina I mixed mica powders with a water based dye and floated that onto the edge. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Wow, that is fabulous. Much more complex then I would imagine. |
| Mike_S | That is fabulous |
| keithz | Beautiful...the vessel appears to emerging from the leafing |
| CaroleV | David, what is a good metal to start learning with on wood? Copper? |
| David Marks | Carole copper would be an excellent one. It is inexpensive and it reacts the quickest with chemicals. |
| CaroleV | Ok. Thanks. Want to start trying some of this but don't want to jump into 24K gold! LOL |
| keithz | Copper would look good on the right wood. |
| Jennifer_Shirley | David, where else do you teach, other than Marc Adams School of Woodworking. Sorry if that was already asked before I got here. |
| Stuart | Does copper leaf react with chemicals the same as, say, sheet copper? |
| David Marks | Mike, yes leafing over textured wood such as carving or even sandblasted wood is something that I have done, and again I rely on shellac as a way to seal the surface. Generally on carvings you might need to lay 2 or 3 sheets of metal leaf to pounce it down into the recesses. |
| GregH | Here is a direct link to David's kits that are for sale through his site. http://www.djmarks.com/patinationkit.asp |
| David Marks | Typically with gold leaf I will double-gild and sometimes triple-gild until I can get all of the holidays covered. |
| Stephen_ | Do you re-size to fill the voids? |
| Ellis |  Here is another vessel that David asked me to post: |
| David Marks | I have a DVD that is 90 minutes long that goes over gilding and patinas. You can buy it at my website www.djmarks.com. |
| Stephen_ | How big are these vessels? |
| David Marks | The vessels are about 12 inches tall. |
| GregH | David, I saw a vessel episode and it looked like you were using "Ellsworth" hollowers in David's style of handle. Is that still your preferred method for hollowing? |
| CaroleV | Does your video go into detail about how to apply gilding? "Gilding for Idiots"? LOL |
| Paul_Kierstead | The leafing looks very "organic". Is it part of the process (akin to splatter paint), or is it painstakingly laid out and masked? |
| David Marks | Hi Greg. I started out with the Ellsworth boring bars, but now I am using the Lyle Jamieson laser-guided torque-arrest bar. |
| Ellis |  Here is another example of creative leafing and patination: |
| David Marks | Yes the DVD does go into detail on the gilding application methods. It is co-authored by Grace Baggot, who demonstrates traditional gilding techniques while I demo the Japanese Notan gilding. |
| GregH | It's been great, as always but I have some bed time stories to read for some tired girls. Thanks Ellis and David for setting this up. Good Night. |
| David Marks |  This wall sculpture with the gold center and quilted maple is 3 feet in diameter. The outside field is gilded with silver. There are a wide variety of colors from the chemical patina which is mostly sulfurated postash on silver leaf. |
| keithz | David, what is the difference between traditional and Japanese Notan gilding? |
| Mike_S | Thanks David, I enjoyed it. It is off to bed with me. |
| keithz | What is Mike, your Stubby? |
| Mike_S | It is a little lumpy for a bed partner |
| David Marks | Keith, traditional gilding typically covers the entire surface with metal leaf. Notan gilding refers to the balance of positive and negative space so usually I might cover 90% with metal leaf and have 10% of the background paint showing thru. |
| keithz | A bit of the less is more thought. |
| David Marks | When it comes to applying the chemicals, I find that tissue paper and cheesecloth work very well as a vehicle to create patterns on the metal leaf. |
| Ellis | Do you use a leafing brush to apply the metal? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Ahh, very very interesting |
| Stephen_ | Do you go after holidays in the leafing right away or do you go back and resize later? |
| Paul_Kierstead | Similiar to painting in certain ways. |
| David Marks | Typically as far as applying the metal leaf to the surface I generally wash my hands really well, and pick up the metal leaf with my fingers. If I am covering large surface, I use the open book method, |
| keithz | David, thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Ellis thanks for setting this evening up. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. |
| Ellis | You bet, Keith |
| keithz | I look forward to reading the transcript online Ellis. |
| Ellis | Yes, we'll get it up there in the next day or so. |
| TomCollins | Ditto what Keith said. G'night everyone |
| David Marks | Stephen, I would put more gold or whatever leaf I am using over the holidays and use the pinky finger which tends to be softer, and press the metal leaf down into the holiday. If that does not work you can always brush more size over the holidays and then gild. Make sure you use a fine, sable hair brush or if you want to save money, use a sable synthetic blend which is less expensive and works well. |
| Tom_Pilsbury | Hello. My first time here |
| Stuart | Very enjoyable and informative evening. Thanks David and Ellis. |
| David Marks | Hi Tom |
| Ellis | Well you picked a good night, Tom, but you're on the tail end of a special guest chat. David Marks is my guest. |
| Tom_Pilsbury | Wow! A personal greeting from the famous David Marks! |
| Tom_Pilsbury | Yeah. Story of my life. Too late! |
| Paul_Kierstead | Some sculptors do patina with a torch. Have you ever tried a very light touch with a torch on wood? Do you do other bases? |
| Paul_Kierstead | (torch + chemistry, of course) |
| Stephen_ | Thanks David, I have only oil-gilt a time or two, I water-gild all the time, so this is interesting. |
| David Marks | Good to meet you, let me know if you have any questions I can answer for you. |
| Paul_Kierstead | Or is the technique not suitable for leaf (I expect gold and silver would melt...) |
| Bathgems | Why would you use gold leaf when you can just hammer out some bullion. Its like using a solid slab of wood versus veneer. |
| David Marks | Paul, I never use a torch when doing patinas on gilded metals because it would destroy the bond. I only use a torch on cast bronze or sheet metals like copper or brass or any type of solid non-ferrous metal. |
| Ellis | Here are a few views of David's recent buckeye burl piece:   |
| Paul_Kierstead | I suppose one could patina sheet metal an inlay it. |
| David Marks | Bathgems, you must have bigger art budget than I have. |
| Bathgems | buckeye burl? |
| Paul_Kierstead | I think I could examine that piece up close for some time, quite entrancing |
| Tom_Pilsbury | David: What finish would you say is easiest to learn. I've only used poly, and recently tried BLO/mineral spirts mix. Your tung oil finishes are outstanding. |
| Bathgems | Budget smudget |
| Ellis | Isn't that outrageous buckeye? |
| David Marks | Hi Tom, at my website I identify the tung oil products that I am using on the Woodworks show, which include two General Finishes products called Seal-A-Cell, and Arm-R-Seal, a thinned-down wiping varnish. I have been using this product since 1980s and it did say tung oil on the can then. Three months after the last episode at the end of 2003, they took the tung oil out of the product, so there is a lot of confusion about it. |
| Bathgems | So Ellis, I took your advice on the shellac and then Waterlox. Good stuff. |
| Ellis | Thanks Bath. Glad it worked. |
| Stephen_ | Well thanks David and Ellis for this fine chat, night all |
| Paul_Kierstead | I have to admit, David, I am really intrigued. The work is much closer to sculpture, particularly in texture/colour/finish then I expected. Very impressive. |
| David Marks | Over a gilded finish you are best off using a film finish, shellac, lacquer, polyurethane, etc. It is always best to spray it on if possible. |
| Ellis | See you, Stephen. Thanks for coming. |
| Tom_Pilsbury | David: I'll be looking into your website soon. Thanks |
| Bathgems | How duarble is a gilded finish? Can you do it on a tabletop? |
| Ellis | Seal-A-Cell is very much like Waterlox in handling properties. |
| David Marks | My personal preference is a water white lacquer. I am specifically using Sherwin Williams CAB acryllic lacquer solvent base, not water base. I always rub out the finish with micro-mesh after the final coats. |
| David Marks | Bathgems, yes I have used the CAB acryllic lacquer over gilded finishes that I have done on table tops that have held up for over 20 years. |
| Paul_Kierstead | And I thought turning had hit an impasse :) (ducking). Mixed media to the rescue! |
| David Marks | Paul, you should come out to California in August and take my five-day turning and gilding class. Check out my website in the Classes Section www.djmarks.com |
| Paul_Kierstead | I definitely will check it out. Nothing wrong with California in August, either. |
| David Marks | Lots of good wine here in Sonoma County, too. |
| Paul_Kierstead | That could sell it to my g/f :) |
| David Marks | There also lots of spas for her too. |
| wilbur | Any chance on you teaching a class out on the East coast? |
| David Marks | Sure, I just need someone to put it together. Ellis is a good candidate. |
| Ellis | LOL :) |
| wilbur | Ellis? |
| Don_in_Central_Illilnois | Or in the heartland? |
| David Marks | I have a six-day Turning & Gilding class at the Marc Adams School in Indiana in September. |
| Don_in_Central_Illilnois | I'll have to check it out. I believe it's in southern IN and that's within a three-hour drive. |
| Ellis | Well, it's been a great chat, and I appreciate everyone's participation. |
| Don_in_Central_Illilnois | Looking forward to the chat log. About to run out of battery in wife's laptop. David, it has been a real pleasure in 'meeting' you. Look forward to meeting you in person some day. |
| wilbur | David, I know that I came in late, so I apologize if this has already been asked, but do you find that there is a geographic preference for patination? |
| David Marks | Wilbur I have taught gilding and patination everywhere from Texas to Chicago to Florida to Hawaii, basically all over the US as well as New Zealand. |
| Ellis | David, thanks for joining us again.... |
| Tom_Pilsbury | And a happy Independence Day to you! |
| Lan_B | Thanks David and Ellis. Very informative! |
| wilbur | Thanks, David, and thanks to Ellis for organizing this. |
| Bathgems | I have an agenda, and questions too. |
| Ellis | Thanks to everyone. We'll see you again too |
| Paul_Kierstead | Thank you very much |
| Paul_Kierstead | It has been interesting and informative |
| David Marks | Thank you everyone, It has been a lot fun chatting with you. Have a great 4th of July and I look forward to meeting you in the future. |
| Doc_Green | Thanks, David, for sharing the info. Very interesting stuff ! |
| Ellis | See you all. Thanks again David |